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Jason
Thought I'd start a new thread for me to post requests for feedback on various things that come up regarding Rodrom, my new Mordor and MXP remake project.

So, of course I wouldn't start this thread if I didn't have something useful to put in it right away. I've just finished implementing the Fog of the Unknown, i.e. anything you haven't explored yet in the dungeon is not shown yet on the map. What do you guys think? I like it but at the same time I'm not quite sure about it. Not sure how I'd improve it yet though either.

Jason
I've been thinking about the guilds and feel I want to change things up a little in that regard compared to Mordor. Here's my current working list of guilds:

Adventurers Guild [known as Nomad's Guild in Mordor]
Warriors Guild
Assassins Guild [known as Ninja's Guild in Mordor]
Thieves Guild
Explorers Guild [known as Seeker's Guild in Mordor]
Healers Guild
Hunters Guild
Clerics Brotherhood (male only)
Paladins Templar
Black Knights Order [kind of known as the Villain's Guild in Mordor]
Charmers Sisterhood (female only) [known as the Mage's Guild in Mordor]

This list doesn't include magic based guilds yet, as I still need to think about that more. I've dropped the Scavenger's Guild from Mordor as I don't think it's really needed.

The Adventurers Guild is, like Mordor, the first guild you are automatically an initial member of when you create a new character. They are willing to take everyone in and try to help everyone. It's a jack of all trades kind of guild, useful if you want some skillset but can't join the specialized guild for that for whatever reason.

What do you guys and gals think? I want to try and create more choices and options. Also consider that there could be challenge restrictions. Crashland had two challenge he posted. Suppose in Rodrom you could select a challenge to start and the game would enforce the various rules for that challenge? Like maybe the rules would make only some of the guilds available to join, and you could only join one of them. That could make you consider the guilds a little differently. Maybe you have to play as a certain race, and that would limit your guild choices. Etc. I haven't listed alignment restrictions yet for the guild as that will be ironed out later. I want to try and come up with a complete guild list first.
Roland
The Hunters Guild and Clerics Brotherhood are new. Could you describe them?

Jason
QUOTE (Roland @ Jun 5 2019, 10:14 PM) *
The Hunters Guild and Clerics Brotherhood are new. Could you describe them?


Sure! First it's good to understand the Warriors Guild and Assassins Guild. They are both fighting oriented Guilds, but Assassins focus more on attack and less on defense, while Warriors focus more on solid defense and being tanks. The Hunters Guild lies kind of in the middle, while also have some abilities in capturing creatures, much like the Mage did in Mordor, or the new Charmer Sisterhood. Perhaps a little explorer thrown in as well would make sense too.

The Clerics Brotherhood had healing spells only slightly less effective than the Healers Guild, some fighting ability but are restricted to blunt weapons, are male only and also restricted to good alignment. They also have spells for dealing with undead, demons and devils, which the Paladins also have. I might have some other magic classes that have these but Paladins and Clerics are the best for these spells.
BLauritson
I like the idea of introducing gender restrictions to certain guilds, it adds to the roleplaying feel of it and also gives the character's gender it a bit more meaning beyond cosmetic.

Other than that I don't think I've got much to add except that I like the names you've come up with so far smile.gif

Actually one thing, since you asked about the Fog of Unknown, how much effort would it be to only show that glow around open tiles that have not been explored yet? Or to put it another way, currently the glow is visible even on the other side of walls which can't be passed by non-magical means - would it make more sense to hide the glow when a wall obscures what tile comes next? Just a thought.
Jason
QUOTE (BLauritson @ Jun 6 2019, 02:31 PM) *
I like the idea of introducing gender restrictions to certain guilds, it adds to the roleplaying feel of it and also gives the character's gender it a bit more meaning beyond cosmetic.

Other than that I don't think I've got much to add except that I like the names you've come up with so far smile.gif

Actually one thing, since you asked about the Fog of Unknown, how much effort would it be to only show that glow around open tiles that have not been explored yet? Or to put it another way, currently the glow is visible even on the other side of walls which can't be passed by non-magical means - would it make more sense to hide the glow when a wall obscures what tile comes next? Just a thought.


Ya, I thought gender should matter a little more. I don't want to take it too far, though. Might try and have another pair, maybe not, we'll see. smile.gif Glad you are liking the names.

I think this is what you have in mind regarding the Fog of Unknown?



It's an interesting idea. Might need to try all the various ideas out with playtesting and take a vote on what everyone likes best. I'm thinking you might have the right idea here though. Does make more sense. Thanks for the idea.
BLauritson
I think just having one pair of gender-restricted guilds is enough smile.gif It's enough to make character gender a bit more meaningful without placing too many restrictions on the player's choices in my opinion.

I really like the first of the screenshots you've offered there, it feels neat while still offering a sense of the unknown still yet to be explored.

As for the idea, you're welcome smile.gif I really admire your enthusiasm for this project, and look forward to seeing how it progresses.
Jason
QUOTE (BLauritson @ Jun 6 2019, 05:16 PM) *
I think just having one pair of gender-restricted guilds is enough smile.gif It's enough to make character gender a bit more meaningful without placing too many restrictions on the player's choices in my opinion.

I really like the first of the screenshots you've offered there, it feels neat while still offering a sense of the unknown still yet to be explored.

As for the idea, you're welcome smile.gif I really admire your enthusiasm for this project, and look forward to seeing how it progresses.


I think you're probably right about just one pair of gender restricted guilds being enough. I don't foresee more than a few more guilds added to the list at this point, but if there end up being more then maybe.

I've always enjoyed RPGs. I've begun writing a few in the past but never finished or even got that far with them. I think this time I'll finally finish my first one. The really hard part is all the content, items, creatures, etc. and also balancing it all. I think it's smart to wait on all that until you have an actual playable game. Having something you can play helps a lot in keeping the motivation up. So that's my first phase goal really is getting this thing playable even if there isn't much content. I'm doing well so far with that.
Mordion
QUOTE (Jason @ Jun 6 2019, 04:52 PM) *
Ya, I thought gender should matter a little more. I don't want to take it too far, though. Might try and have another pair, maybe not, we'll see. smile.gif Glad you are liking the names.

I think this is what you have in mind regarding the Fog of Unknown?



It's an interesting idea. Might need to try all the various ideas out with playtesting and take a vote on what everyone likes best. I'm thinking you might have the right idea here though. Does make more sense. Thanks for the idea.


This was my solution to the problem.



I calculated which walls could be seen and marked them, but I only marked the floor if you stood on it.
Jason
QUOTE (Mordion @ Jun 7 2019, 08:30 PM) *
This was my solution to the problem.

I calculated which walls could be seen and marked them, but I only marked the floor if you stood on it.


Pretty cool. It seems to me like you can see the floors as easily as the walls, so it seems like the floors should be exposed as well. Hmm, I think I might try experimenting with your idea.

What we were talking about wasn't so much exposing the map, though, but rather indicating the outer boundary of what's been exposed. The "glow" shows the transition from known to unknown. Seems like this wasn't that clear from the feedback so I guess I'd count that as a flop. Maybe I'll scrap it, or try something else. It doesn't feel right to me as it is the more I think about it.
Mordion
QUOTE (Jason @ Jun 8 2019, 12:16 AM) *
Pretty cool. It seems to me like you can see the floors as easily as the walls, so it seems like the floors should be exposed as well. Hmm, I think I might try experimenting with your idea.

What we were talking about wasn't so much exposing the map, though, but rather indicating the outer boundary of what's been exposed. The "glow" shows the transition from known to unknown. Seems like this wasn't that clear from the feedback so I guess I'd count that as a flop. Maybe I'll scrap it, or try something else. It doesn't feel right to me as it is the more I think about it.


I believe my mini map does indicate the outer boundary. It's not obviously marking unexplored areas but the information is there. If the floor is gray you haven't been there and there could be traps. If the walls are white then you know what's there to the best of your characters perception. I added the additional information of dark gray walls that have been seen but haven't been experienced. This indicates that it's on the fringe of exploration.

For example take a look at the upper left 4x4 room. It's actually 4 2x2 rooms but the player hasn't discovered that. Look at the NW corner of the perimeter hallway. I can tell from the wall discovery pattern that the player looked north along the left-vertical hallway, but did not look west while in the top horizontal hallway. Otherwise the whole north-east corner would have dark gray walls.

This is pretty much all I have. I geeked out on mini-maps years ago and then never actually made a game out of it.
Jason
QUOTE (Mordion @ Jun 8 2019, 10:43 AM) *
I believe my mini map does indicate the outer boundary. It's not obviously marking unexplored areas but the information is there. If the floor is gray you haven't been there and there could be traps. If the walls are white then you know what's there to the best of your characters perception. I added the additional information of dark gray walls that have been seen but haven't been experienced. This indicates that it's on the fringe of exploration.

For example take a look at the upper left 4x4 room. It's actually 4 2x2 rooms but the player hasn't discovered that. Look at the NW corner of the perimeter hallway. I can tell from the wall discovery pattern that the player looked north along the left-vertical hallway, but did not look west while in the top horizontal hallway. Otherwise the whole north-east corner would have dark gray walls.

This is pretty much all I have. I geeked out on mini-maps years ago and then never actually made a game out of it.


Ya, that's what I got too, using the light gray. I was just playing around with it fading away when adjacent to an explored tile. I'm overhauling the map rendering a little now to allow rendering it rotated. I'll be needing that later. One possibility is we could have the map rotate as you turn so your position arrow is always facing north. Hard to judge if people would like that or not. Could leave it as an option you could adjust in the configs if you wanted. Edit: Nope, forget that. Way too jarring. I can't stand it and I don't think anyone else would like it either.

Anyway, you fooled me. It looks like a working game to me! The power of a screenshot I guess. smile.gif
Jason
I've been messing around with the exploration code and this is what I've come up with. This screenshot shows a step by step progression.



So you have explored cells, semi-explored cells that you can partially see with your current dungeon view (shown as a lighter tile), and I've now decoupled the walls and cells so they can be revealed individually.

I'm pretty happy with how it works now. Better than what I had before and makes more sense.
cmpederson
Just checking back into the site every so often and I am pleased to see the info on the new game. I am looking forward to more and hope you are able to accomplish it. Thank you


Cory
vanhessler
Quick question: what method are you using for the 3d view panel? (I assume/suspect raycasting, but checking to see if you are using a game engine or something else?)
MythrilZenith
Man, I remember a few years ago when I found the site that the old Mordor XP project got shelved. I got pretty bummed out, tbh.
With this, though, it already looks pretty good! I'm definitely excited to see your progress as you go.

So are you using any existing Mordor floors as test floors or reference, or will the entire dungeon be new? Because I have some thoughts on some of the old floors, and some things I personally would have done differently, but ultimately the end result is up to you.
Custos84
This Rodrom looks really promising. I like the look of the mini-map. Does the brown wall indicate a door?

Is it predominantly a graphical upgrade with a few tweaks to classes etc? What do you see this offering that is different from Demise Ascension?
Relea
QUOTE (BLauritson @ Jun 6 2019, 11:16 PM) *
I really admire your enthusiasm for this project, and look forward to seeing how it progresses.


I can relate to that!

This thread needs to be pinned too ok.gif
Jason
QUOTE (vanhessler @ Aug 25 2019, 03:07 PM) *
Quick question: what method are you using for the 3d view panel? (I assume/suspect raycasting, but checking to see if you are using a game engine or something else?)


Ya, it's pretty much a ray-casting system for the lighting, figuring out how far away that pixel is so I know how bright it should be. Could be simplified I'm sure but so far haven't figured out the simplified math. Texturing is simpler, though, and based on the tricks from the original doom for rendering.

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 28 2019, 05:31 PM) *
So are you using any existing Mordor floors as test floors or reference, or will the entire dungeon be new? Because I have some thoughts on some of the old floors, and some things I personally would have done differently, but ultimately the end result is up to you.


No, I've designed my own data structures for floors, though it is probably pretty similar to what Mordor used. I have an editor built in to be able to make dungeons. The data structure for a floor includes the width for x and y sizes of the floor. So each floor could in theory be different dimensions. There is no limit to the number of floors. So it's quite flexible. I haven't imported Mordor's floors or anything, though I did create part of Mordor's first floor for a test map. It's all just test map right now, no real dungeon. It's too early to worry about designing the actual dungeon just yet.

QUOTE (Custos84 @ Sep 3 2019, 06:25 PM) *
This Rodrom looks really promising. I like the look of the mini-map. Does the brown wall indicate a door?

Is it predominantly a graphical upgrade with a few tweaks to classes etc? What do you see this offering that is different from Demise Ascension?


Yes, the brown represents a door. The walls and cells of the minimap are rendered using "symbols", and I'll eventually have a legend that shows all the symbols and what they represent. I am planning to have it be configurable, so you could select a symbol and edit it to pick a new symbol you like better, and the minimap would then render using that new symbol instead. All the symbols internally are on a sprite sheet. I have made two sprite sheets actually, one that uses the original Mordor look with tiles being 15 x 15, and a new modern one you are seeing in all the screenshots, which is 25 x 25 for each tile. So I'm also supporting different tile sizes. Editing what symbol represents what would be limited to just one sprite sheet. Not sure if any of that made much sense to you but there it is. smile.gif

It is not just a upgrade of basically Mordor. I'm writing all this from scratch using Mordor as an initial basis. In another thread I have a screenshot of the editor that shows the tabs for various data tables. It has the race editor tab selected I think and you can see what it's capable of doing for race editing, which is more like race adding at this point. With everything from scratch, everything needs to be added in for the first time as well, and it's all going to be done through the editor.

The biggest difference from Demise Ascension would be that it is designed to be moddable probably. I will be making it open source, so if the editors don't give you enough power to change what you want, you could mess with the source code too. Spin off your own unique game if you want. I'm thinking of this project as a foundation more than anything for greater things to come.
ghezra
So like.. can you have a discord or a github, or something we can use to track and engage with this project?

I only say because projects like this have come, got us all excited, and then vanished to never be heard from again, and worst case scenario, if you want to finish working on it and be done, we could potentially pick up the pieces and keep driving it.

sad.gif I just want to see your (our) dreams come to a reality!

It looks extremely promising and well laid out so far.
Jason
QUOTE (ghezra @ Jan 4 2020, 04:18 PM) *
So like.. can you have a discord or a github, or something we can use to track and engage with this project?

I only say because projects like this have come, got us all excited, and then vanished to never be heard from again, and worst case scenario, if you want to finish working on it and be done, we could potentially pick up the pieces and keep driving it.

sad.gif I just want to see your (our) dreams come to a reality!

It looks extremely promising and well laid out so far.


Ya, github sounds like a good idea. I just have to figure out how it all works since I've never used it before. So I'm going to start working on that and I'll keep you guys posted. Lets hope it's pretty easy.
ghezra
QUOTE (Jason @ Jan 6 2020, 11:19 AM) *
Ya, github sounds like a good idea. I just have to figure out how it all works since I've never used it before. So I'm going to start working on that and I'll keep you guys posted. Lets hope it's pretty easy.



With github, you have to be cognizant of how you want your code to appear. I don’t know if github will let you hide your code for free, but I know bitbucket will. Are you ok with other people submitting commits/code help, privatizing it though means that people can’t as easily game the system by knowing the underlying algorithms used for spawning/hits/etc.

Almost every company uses some form of git repo for code, so it’s an important skill to get in the habit of.
korexus
QUOTE (ghezra @ Jan 6 2020, 09:29 PM) *
With github, you have to be cognizant of how you want your code to appear. I don’t know if github will let you hide your code for free, but I know bitbucket will. Are you ok with other people submitting commits/code help, privatizing it though means that people can’t as easily game the system by knowing the underlying algorithms used for spawning/hits/etc.

Almost every company uses some form of git repo for code, so it’s an important skill to get in the habit of.


Github does allow private repositories for free users these days, and you can add individual contributors to them if you know the appropriate user names.

That said, public projects can often be more successful. - Yes, people can see the underlying code and exploit it, but equally people can see those potential exploits and submit improvements.


Drop me a line if you need github help. I'm fairly well versed, and it's not always obvious to newcomers.


korexus.
Jason
Ok, it's up now on github. I don't know how you go about finding it exactly, though. I'm guessing https://github.com/hossumquat/Rodrom will take you there. Have a look and let me know if I screwed anything up majorly or anything korexus. smile.gif Any feedback or tips are welcome. Otherwise I'll just make this up as I go along.

It would be cool if we could have a jar file, maybe that people could just launch by going to a URL? I know nothing about how to make that happen though. I know how to write code but beyond that I don't know how to do much so we'd need someone else who knows that aspect of things.

And ya, I'm fine with it being public. People want to snoop around in the code and find exploits, let them. They are just ruining their own fun.
ghezra
QUOTE (Jason @ Jan 6 2020, 03:37 PM) *
Ok, it's up now on github. I don't know how you go about finding it exactly, though. I'm guessing https://github.com/hossumquat/Rodrom will take you there. Have a look and let me know if I screwed anything up majorly or anything korexus. smile.gif Any feedback or tips are welcome. Otherwise I'll just make this up as I go along.

It would be cool if we could have a jar file, maybe that people could just launch by going to a URL? I know nothing about how to make that happen though. I know how to write code but beyond that I don't know how to do much so we'd need someone else who knows that aspect of things.

And ya, I'm fine with it being public. People want to snoop around in the code and find exploits, let them. They are just ruining their own fun.


I’m on a business trip but you can create “releases” that can be the release Jar along with a version number and patch notes.
So you have a history of the versions that people are testing via downloading the releases. And as people find bugs they can submit it in the bug tracker and can be fixed by you or contributors.

I don’t want to make this project feel like it isn’t yours though. I’d of course want the main outlines of functions etc to be yours if you’d like. But we can also contribute images etc for items and monsters although assets typically don’t get tracked in git repos because of the binary load.
korexus
QUOTE (Jason @ Jan 6 2020, 10:37 PM) *
Ok, it's up now on github. I don't know how you go about finding it exactly, though. I'm guessing https://github.com/hossumquat/Rodrom will take you there. Have a look and let me know if I screwed anything up majorly or anything korexus. smile.gif Any feedback or tips are welcome. Otherwise I'll just make this up as I go along.


That looks like it's working as you'd want it. I see you've been playing around with pull requests. Nothing wrong with that, but they're mostly useful when an least two people are invoved, and one person wants to review what the other one has done. For your use case you can just as easily merge branches locally before you push, or even [gasp] develop directly on master.

QUOTE (Jason)
It would be cool if we could have a jar file, maybe that people could just launch by going to a URL? I know nothing about how to make that happen though. I know how to write code but beyond that I don't know how to do much so we'd need someone else who knows that aspect of things.


Java's not really my strong suit, but it's a popular language and there are plenty of build environments out there. There's certain to be something that will package up jar files for you, triggered by pushed to github if you want. CI workflows rock. cool.gif

When you say launch by going to a URL, are you thinking of a game that plays in the browser, or a game that you download and then play locally? Bothare possible, but what you've got currently is more suited to the latter.


korexus.
Jason
QUOTE (korexus @ Jan 7 2020, 04:59 PM) *
That looks like it's working as you'd want it. I see you've been playing around with pull requests. Nothing wrong with that, but they're mostly useful when an least two people are invoved, and one person wants to review what the other one has done. For your use case you can just as easily merge branches locally before you push, or even [gasp] develop directly on master.

Ya, I was following the github Hello World guide and it walked me through doing pull requests and branching and stuff. Figured it would be good to know for later.


QUOTE (korexus @ Jan 7 2020, 04:59 PM) *
Java's not really my strong suit, but it's a popular language and there are plenty of build environments out there. There's certain to be something that will package up jar files for you, triggered by pushed to github if you want. CI workflows rock. cool.gif

When you say launch by going to a URL, are you thinking of a game that plays in the browser, or a game that you download and then play locally? Bothare possible, but what you've got currently is more suited to the latter.

What's CI workflow? Anyway, I was looking at Java Web Start and that might be an option. I was just thinking it would be easier for people. Right now it's a download source, compile and run locally kind of game. Have you managed to get it running yet?
korexus
QUOTE (Jason @ Jan 8 2020, 02:05 AM) *
What's CI workflow? Anyway, I was looking at Java Web Start and that might be an option. I was just thinking it would be easier for people. Right now it's a download source, compile and run locally kind of game. Have you managed to get it running yet?


CI is Continuous Integration, the basic concept is that you make lots of little changes to a project, and build each one as you go. That way, when one of them introduces a bug you know exactly when it went wrong.

The tooling around this generally works that you push some code to source control, a remote system notices that, runs any automated tests you've defined on the system, and if they pass deploy it somewhere. Quite a lot of providers even off this for free at low throughput, in the hope that developers will use the service for their personal projects, and then recommend them at work.

That process could build an executable from your Java source, which people could download and run, or it could provide a target for a Java Web Start link, or it could deploy a webserver which allows access to your Java app. Setting up any of those would be outside my knowledge though.

I haven't tried getting it running. Downloading and compiling source code isn't actually difficult, but it's enough of a hurdle to put me off. I suspect you'll find a lot of other people are similarly lazy!


korexus.
ghezra
After I get home tonight, I'll do a pull request, and I'll build and play with it.

Do you have a design doc for how you want different pieces to look/feel if I have time to work on a piece? Is there a piece you'd like me to attempt some solutions for while you dive into the section you're currently working on?

I'd want to contribute smartly and not be coding something you're already working on.
Jason
QUOTE (ghezra @ Jan 10 2020, 09:51 AM) *
After I get home tonight, I'll do a pull request, and I'll build and play with it.

Do you have a design doc for how you want different pieces to look/feel if I have time to work on a piece? Is there a piece you'd like me to attempt some solutions for while you dive into the section you're currently working on?

I'd want to contribute smartly and not be coding something you're already working on.


Not really. I was just hoping someone could try and build and run it to see if that's doable or if there is something I've overlooked. Once that's done, I was hoping to get first impressions/feedback. I wasn't really looking at work being done yet. I supposed I need to start doing design lead duties and come up with some documents.

To start with, if you get it running, F3 gets you into the editor mode, and F2 back into game mode. I'm thinking most of the work need to be done in the editor first, so the game has data to work with.

Should I just make a /docs directory and put the all the documents in there? Or is there a more preferred way to handle it instead of including it in the repository? It makes sense to me but I don't see other projects doing it on github that I can see so maybe it's not the best way.
ghezra
You can create a wiki off of the github repo to put information in like this temporarily if you want. Using a /docs/ folder isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s whatever is easiest for you.
ghezra
Yeah... having the hardest time getting your code to actually compile.

I've imported the two jar's you included as libraries, Which IDE do you use?

EDIT:

Nevermind, finally got it to work, just a bunch of intellij tomfoolery.

I've built a Jar and this zip allows someone to play v0.1
Rodrom v0.1
Jason
QUOTE (ghezra @ Jan 11 2020, 01:23 AM) *
Yeah... having the hardest time getting your code to actually compile.

I've imported the two jar's you included as libraries, Which IDE do you use?

EDIT:

Nevermind, finally got it to work, just a bunch of intellij tomfoolery.

I've built a Jar and this zip allows someone to play v0.1
Rodrom v0.1


I'm using eclipse. Seems like everyone else is always using intellij. I don't know why; maybe I should be using it too? Anyway, glad to hear you got it working. Thanks for sharing an executable with everyone.
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