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fischsemmel
post Jul 3 2019, 05:46 PM
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I don't think I've seen these on the wiki or on a cursory forum search:

How do you do the optimal leveling path on a fresh install? Do you get 5 or 10 levels without con bonuses or do you actually grind your way to max con at level 1?

How do charms bind strength deteriorate? Is charisma a factor such that gnome is a significantly better charmer than anything else? Or do charms usually die so fast that it isnt too relevant?

Does invisibility on a PC actually halve damage taken? I feel like I get hit too hard with it up for it to be working. Or maybe that outcast goblin actually does hit for 10 normally? Or do tons of things see invis?

Am I correctly understanding the thieving formula that a scavenger is actually only about 20% worse at disarming traps than a similar-level thief? And ninja only 5ish% worse than that?

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Jul 3 2019, 05:50 PM
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MythrilZenith
post Jul 3 2019, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 3 2019, 11:46 AM) *
I don't think I've seen these on the wiki or on a cursory forum search:

How do you do the optimal leveling path on a fresh install? Do you get 5 or 10 levels without con bonuses or do you actually grind your way to max con at level 1?

How do charms bind strength deteriorate? Is charisma a factor such that gnome is a significantly better charmer than anything else? Or do charms usually die so fast that it isnt too relevant?

Does invisibility on a PC actually halve damage taken? I feel like I get hit too hard with it up for it to be working. Or maybe that outcast goblin actually does hit for 10 normally? Or do tons of things see invis?

Am I correctly understanding the thieving formula that a scavenger is actually only about 20% worse at disarming traps than a similar-level thief? And ninja only 5ish% worse than that?



1. Everyone plays differently. If you want to only use one character ever on the install then you will need to do a lot of level-1 play to try and max out. I personally just always assume my first character on an account is a throwaway and so just create an ogre or giant who can solo around until they can get enough +con boosters for another character, though that admittedly is more of a legacy tactic.
I think the full OLR experience does assume some level of legacy. Fresh characters can max their natural CON upon creation and still get some points (unless you're a Morloch) but they won't be getting the sick +5 extra from stat boosters.
Another thing you could do would be to try and maximize your level-specific points by leveling warrior to 28, and then just leveling other classes to 28 while you try and build up the stats to get to Wizard.
At that point it's just min-maxing for a few points of HP though so it might not be all that worthwhile.

2. I know that the particular charm spell used is a factor, and that injured monsters tend to lose bind levels faster than healthy ones, but I don't know the exact formula. Higher bind levels also tend to break a lot slower than low ones - once you cross the "perfectly bound" threshold you shouldn't be too worried. For low levels it isn't too important but if you find particularly strong companions you'll want to be careful what you charm them with - Charm Dragon from a purple sash, for instance, doesn't tend to last very long since the bind isn't all that high, but a Soul Entrapment will bind them really well.

3. Invisibility only works on monsters who can't see invisible, though that shouldn't matter much in early levels. And yes, Outcast Goblins can hit for 10+ normally - their Att just sucks so much that they won't normally hit anyone with better than leather/copper armor.

4. As far as the guild stats formulas, I believe they are more or less logarithmic than linear. So a 12 is significantly better than a 9. Lower down that means not as much, so the difference between Scavenger and Ninja thieving skill, for instance, isn't too meaningful, but the difference between a Scavenger and a Thief is very significant. The best way to compare is probably by looking at the Multiple Swings skill listings - Ninja being so much higher is indicative of the fact that they can get 2 extra swings by the time most other listed classes can even get one. That same sort of trend likely carries through with the other guild stat numbers.


I don't know all these for facts, but after a lot of play and talking to other people these are my assumptions on how things work. I still learn new things everyday though so all this could be wrong.

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Jul 3 2019, 06:39 PM


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fischsemmel
post Jul 3 2019, 07:13 PM
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I know some formulas are not linear. Combat ability squares the guild modifier, for example, so 12 warrior is a LOT better than a 9 seeker. But the thieving formula just has multiplication of the thief mod in it, and guild level gets a log I think.
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MythrilZenith
post Jul 3 2019, 07:19 PM
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Oh, if you're looking at the raw formula, then yes. Thieving ability in particular is only slightly worse for Ninja than for Scavenger. The 20% difference between Thief and Scavenger adds up to quite a bit, especially at high levels, but the 5% between scavenger and ninja honestly doesn't feel that much different. Ninja is just a much more exclusive class than Scavenger (only accessible to humans and trolls) which is why scavenger is leveled so much more frequently than ninja.


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I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

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fischsemmel
post Jul 6 2019, 03:48 PM
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What are all the consequences of alignment?

Obviously it affects guild access and item use. And I know good characters can't attack good companions, and that good and evil characters can't be in a party together. What else is there?

I remember seeing something about how often good/neutral/evil monsters will be automatically hostile when you come into a room based on your alignment, but I cant find the article or post about that.


Edit - my search fu finally came through. http://dejenol.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1332&st=0

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Jul 6 2019, 04:05 PM
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BLauritson
post Jul 6 2019, 04:06 PM
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I don't know all the specifics, but I know that Good monsters will always start off friendly to Good characters (not sure how that works in a party but it's definitely true for solo characters). Not sure whether Good monsters can turn hostile to Good characters based on low charisma though.

By the same token, Good monsters will always be hostile to Evil characters. Evil monsters are automatically hostile to everyone regardless of other considerations.


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MythrilZenith
post Jul 8 2019, 03:33 PM
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I don't know for sure if "always" is true but it seems to be more often than not. (It can get annoying actually later on because unleashing a big spell is impossible round 1 vs a peaced enemy).

I do know that a Good character cannot willingly engage in combat against a good-aligned companion, so you will have to change their alignment in order to do that (only becomes a factor for quest-shopping but still can get annoying).

Beyond that, guilds and items are the main restrictions. Plus that using opposite-aligned stuff counts as cursed, either locking it to your character (if equipment) or giving negative stats (if consumeables). Basically don't try to consume stuff without ID'ing it unless you're desperate.


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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fischsemmel
post Jul 8 2019, 09:18 PM
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Cool cool.

I'm probably around 4/5 for clicking on a faster spell to initiate combat, then hitting a big one before the small one actually goes off. So that's not so bad.

I'm enjoying when nasty neutral creatures like item-destroying slimes spawn as peaced though. I can just leave them alone and know the room is safe until a respawn, which takes quite a while without clearing it.
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fischsemmel
post Jul 12 2019, 04:08 AM
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What exactly does defending do?
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Roland
post Jul 12 2019, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 12 2019, 12:08 AM) *
What exactly does defending do?

It reportedly increases the character's defense by 50%. But casting a combat spell reportedly has the same effect.
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MythrilZenith
post Aug 28 2019, 03:33 AM
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I have my own question:
Is there a way to move Hands off of slot 1? I seem to vaguely remember doing this on characters long ago, but if it is possible I've forgotten. Hands cannot be traded, and the 's'wap command cannot swap with slot 1.


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I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

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Mordion
post Sep 5 2019, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 27 2019, 11:33 PM) *
I have my own question:
Is there a way to move Hands off of slot 1? I seem to vaguely remember doing this on characters long ago, but if it is possible I've forgotten. Hands cannot be traded, and the 's'wap command cannot swap with slot 1.

Did you try drag and drop?

If you find a way, put your best item there. Slime traps can’t touch the first slot.

This post has been edited by Mordion: Sep 5 2019, 02:15 AM
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MythrilZenith
post Sep 5 2019, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 4 2019, 08:14 PM) *
Did you try drag and drop?

If you find a way, put your best item there. Slime traps can’t touch the first slot.

That's why I want to know, laugh.gif
Drag and drop hasn't worked for me, it just refuses to move.


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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Mordion
post Sep 6 2019, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 5 2019, 12:50 PM) *
That's why I want to know, laugh.gif
Drag and drop hasn't worked for me, it just refuses to move.


I just checked the source. Drag and drop and the S key both exclude the first slot.
FRMCHAR3.FRM:1250
MAINMOD2.BAS:2601

It might be possible through save file editing, but some functions check for the item ID of hands and others check the slot ID and assume hands. It would take a while that every function checks in a way that works in your favor.
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MythrilZenith
post Sep 6 2019, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 5 2019, 08:17 PM) *
I just checked the source. Drag and drop and the S key both exclude the first slot.
FRMCHAR3.FRM:1250
MAINMOD2.BAS:2601

It might be possible through save file editing, but some functions check for the item ID of hands and others check the slot ID and assume hands. It would take a while that every function checks in a way that works in your favor.


I suppose that was probably from a global decision that decided that a character shouldn't be able to just get rid of their hands (or lose them to a slime), and so the easiest way to do that was to just lock hands to slot 1 and then restrict everything else from interacting with slot 1.

Well if I have to edit core game files to get that to happen then I don't think I'll be willing to take that plunge. Still, it's interesting to at least know how those interactions work.
If I remembered doing that before, it's possible that I did it on the shareware version, which may not have had as strict restrictions on Slot 1 as the full release version does, because I know I've never edited the actual files beyond just swapping out the files for the T'Mana mod.

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Sep 6 2019, 06:32 PM


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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Mordion
post Sep 7 2019, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 6 2019, 01:05 PM) *
I suppose that was probably from a global decision that decided that a character shouldn't be able to just get rid of their hands (or lose them to a slime), and so the easiest way to do that was to just lock hands to slot 1 and then restrict everything else from interacting with slot 1.

Well if I have to edit core game files to get that to happen then I don't think I'll be willing to take that plunge. Still, it's interesting to at least know how those interactions work.
If I remembered doing that before, it's possible that I did it on the shareware version, which may not have had as strict restrictions on Slot 1 as the full release version does, because I know I've never edited the actual files beyond just swapping out the files for the T'Mana mod.


I never bothered to decompile the shareware version. Comparing versions would make for quite the archeology dig.
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fischsemmel
post Sep 16 2019, 01:37 PM
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So... do I have this right?

Monsters that use breath attacks and spells will hit a character and all of that character's companions even if the spell normally couldn't (like, I've had draining touch hit me and also kill companions even though it's a 1 stack 1 creature spell for players).

But monsters attacking a party with breath or spells only hit a single character (and any of that character's companions) at a time? I just fought 5 mundragons and I heard the breath attack sound a couple times but my back two people were totally unhurt even though the front one got hit for like 150.

What a huge pain for soloers and a huge perk of parties! Though... if fighting a number of breathers, like a bunch of stacks of flame devils, does each individual pick a target separately so that odds are everyone will get breathed on? But each breath only hits one character? Or does the whole stack breath as one?

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Sep 16 2019, 01:38 PM
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fischsemmel
post Sep 26 2019, 02:14 AM
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I think ive been noticing party melee killing monsters in group #2 sometimes before all the stuff in group #1 is dead, even when I haven't reassigned anyone's targets.

It's even happened that group #2 got wipes out entiely once before #1 was all dead!

Whats up with this? Are my eyes playing a trick on me?
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Roland
post Sep 26 2019, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 25 2019, 10:14 PM) *
I think ive been noticing party melee killing monsters in group #2 sometimes before all the stuff in group #1 is dead, even when I haven't reassigned anyone's targets.

It's even happened that group #2 got wipes out entiely once before #1 was all dead!

Whats up with this? Are my eyes playing a trick on me?

If you have a companion that uses attack spells or breath weapons, it might kill the weak monsters in secondary slots while leaving the more powerful monsters in slot 1 alive.
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fischsemmel
post Sep 26 2019, 10:56 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 25 2019, 11:22 PM) *
If you have a companion that uses attack spells or breath weapons, it might kill the weak monsters in secondary slots while leaving the more powerful monsters in slot 1 alive.


I only very rarely have companions, charmed just to return to town with them, and generally not companions that are strong enough. This is possible but not too likely I don't think. I'll make sure I notice if I have them or not the next time I see this happen.

Like I said, it may just be a trick on my eyes from the screen refresh rate or something, but I swear one time I even saw the second group gone with the first group still present at the end of a melee round.
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