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> Back to Mordor after far too long away!, Or "How I saw people writing about their new characters on here an
BLauritson
post Oct 6 2019, 07:07 AM
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That is crazy that Villains can essentially do as much damage as Wizards from their respective guild crests. I was wondering last night is there any way the hybrid guilds (Scavenger, Villain, Wizard etc.) could be rebalanced to make them more viable and competitive with the specialist guilds, but given the way the rest of the game fits around it (party management, multi-classing etc.) I'm not sure there is a lot that could be done really. Make them a bit more powerful and they risk overtaking the very specialist guilds they're designed to balance against dntknw.gif

I must admit in my earlier days with this party I was being rather cautious in how far I ventured, which I think was a carryover from my previous mode of solo gaming. A few times I've considered taking just one of my current party members out to give them a boost in experience, but combat resolves so much more slowly when everything is focused on that one character that I just don't bother any more.

Unfortunately I have become a little blasé at times when venturing into the deeper levels. Mythraxa died at one point yesterday in completely avoidable circumstances. Backing in and out of a cleared room on DL 10 or 11 in order to determine the true trap type of the chest in there - OK it was a fire trap. No problem, I'll probably fumble it but I've got SP left over for healing.

Yes...perhaps I should have checked the state of the party's health BEFORE pressing the 'O' key...the poor elf was reduced to cinders sad.gif

On the plus side, unless I've just been lucky with the rolls it does seem that successful resurrections initiated by another character never result in Constitution loss. Is that correct or have I just been lucky every time Nothrya has cast Resurrection on somebody?

Only other bit to report is that last night, at Thief 101, Nothrya got quested for an Orb of Life Domination. Thief indeed! Even if I did have one just lying about I'm not going to hand such a valuable item over to the guild for the sake of a few low-exp levels. Time for another forfeit it seems...


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MythrilZenith
post Oct 6 2019, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (BLauritson @ Oct 6 2019, 01:07 AM) *
On the plus side, unless I've just been lucky with the rolls it does seem that successful resurrections initiated by another character never result in Constitution loss. Is that correct or have I just been lucky every time Nothrya has cast Resurrection on somebody?


Resurrection by party member still has roughly the same chance of constitution loss as resurrection by Morgue, iirc. That chance gets lower as your Con gets higher, same with the chance of complications. It also gets higher as you approach maximum age, though until you start getting significantly close that age difference won't really matter much. So if you're at max Con, you're at less chance of losing that Con, but as soon as you lose one point then your chances of losing Con increase. Just a funny interaction.


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I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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Roland
post Oct 6 2019, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (BLauritson @ Oct 6 2019, 03:07 AM) *
I was wondering last night is there any way the hybrid guilds (Scavenger, Villain, Wizard etc.) could be rebalanced to make them more viable and competitive with the specialist guilds, but given the way the rest of the game fits around it (party management, multi-classing etc.) I'm not sure there is a lot that could be done really. Make them a bit more powerful and they risk overtaking the very specialist guilds they're designed to balance against dntknw.gif

This is mostly a vestige of Avatar, where multi-classing is not possible. DA does not seem to have altered the guilds very much for balance in the multi-class context. The biggest change he made was to drastically reduce the att/def of the spellcasting guilds, which practically makes dual-classing compulsory for spellcasters. (In Avatar, spellcasters actually had higher defense than fighter types.)

As we've all been experimenting with our solo characters, it has occurred to me that the thing that makes it a grind is the necessity to level in so many different guilds to obtain all the necessary abilities. I've been trying to figure out how to minimize the number of guilds, and instead focus on amassing lots of levels in a few guilds. My tentative conclusion is that the optimal solo character might be a Ninja/Wizard. The only ability not covered by those two guilds is healing. The main drawback is that such a character would have to be human.
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fischsemmel
post Oct 7 2019, 10:49 AM
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No healing would be a big problem though, unless you arent dying at all ... especially since a ninja/wizard would be a human!

The game basically forcing you to have 95 (or at least 90) in resists and the spell cost system makes it really hard to not be a sorcerer, too.

I think the grind is appropriate though really. Especially as a solo, if you aren't leveling 3 guilds a ton, you won't be in the dungeon enough to find the cool items you need anyways.

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Roland
post Oct 7 2019, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 7 2019, 06:49 AM) *
No healing would be a big problem though, unless you arent dying at all ... especially since a ninja/wizard would be a human!

The game basically forcing you to have 95 (or at least 90) in resists and the spell cost system makes it really hard to not be a sorcerer, too.

I think the grind is appropriate though really. Especially as a solo, if you aren't leveling 3 guilds a ton, you won't be in the dungeon enough to find the cool items you need anyways.

I'm thinking the Ninja/Wizard would need enough Sorc levels to minimize the cost of resistance spells and enough Mage levels to get access to cubes. As for healing, the game seems to produce a lot of healing items, and a few Mage levels would give you access to even more healing items.
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fischsemmel
post Oct 7 2019, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Oct 7 2019, 11:46 AM) *
I'm thinking the Ninja/Wizard would need enough Sorc levels to minimize the cost of resistance spells and enough Mage levels to get access to cubes. As for healing, the game seems to produce a lot of healing items, and a few Mage levels would give you access to even more healing items.


But at that point what good is wizard even?
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Roland
post Oct 7 2019, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 7 2019, 01:48 PM) *
But at that point what good is wizard even?

Most obviously, Word of Death. And extra hits from optimal leveling path.

The criteria I specified for Sorc and Mage levels are both less than 100. (Specifically, Sorc 91 and Mage 95.) That wouldn't take a lot of time. Such a character could also skip Nomad entirely, saving a bit of time. With the Ninja's extra swing, leveling in the spellcasting guilds might come fast.

I'm actually thinking about attempting this in my current dungeon. With confinement nearly filled, the Ninja's high quest parameter won't be nearly as annoying. And the Ninja and Wizard crests are currently unclaimed, which means both would become available at level 49 in the respective guilds.
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fischsemmel
post Oct 7 2019, 07:40 PM
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Hmm. I'm just not feelin it I guess. WoD is cool and all, but it is a REALLY late bloomer for wizard. I think I'd just prefer to focus on sorc or mage. And unfortunately I think a 200 thief/warrior/healer would still work better than a 500 ninja/wiz... laugh.gif

A "2 guild challenge" or something would be fun.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Oct 7 2019, 07:59 PM
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Roland
post Oct 9 2019, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 7 2019, 03:40 PM) *
Hmm. I'm just not feelin it I guess. WoD is cool and all, but it is a REALLY late bloomer for wizard. I think I'd just prefer to focus on sorc or mage. And unfortunately I think a 200 thief/warrior/healer would still work better than a 500 ninja/wiz... laugh.gif

A "2 guild challenge" or something would be fun.

But you can't be a thief/warrior/healer without being neutral. And you would also want seeker levels for the perception if you're playing in a fresh dungeon. (Ninjas have the second-best perception, after seekers, and wizards can teleport, so seeker is another guild a ninja/wizard could dispense with.)

Another idea I have toyed with to address the endless-grind problem is a party with one guild per character (besides nomad). Maybe a party of four Dwarves or Osiris - seeker, thief, sorcerer, healer. The likely problem is that 175 defense from nomad might not be quite enough to keep the spellcasters safe on 14-15.
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fischsemmel
post Oct 9 2019, 12:22 PM
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Eh. Like I said. I just don't think wizard brings enough to the table (it's literally only WoD, and it is hardly usable for 200+ levels because of how wizards get it at CL 18, at which point it's not too unlikely you'll have a cap of death for the one fight you really need WoD anyways). If you're going to have ~100 sorc and mage levels anyway, which isn't a trivial amount of time without powerleveling of some sort, why then also worry about wizard for such little return instead of doing mage for better charming and healing and awesome precog death (and field of death sometimes) or sorc for a wide selection of great nukes (electric field, paralyzing death, acid spray mainly)?

Ninja is cool, but I don't value perception at all because of spinnyspinny to ID everything, and it's going to get a lot of quests and require a lot of XP, and half the goal here was avoiding the grind right?


But Im starting to feel bad about hijacking the thread. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Oct 9 2019, 12:45 PM
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BLauritson
post Oct 9 2019, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 9 2019, 01:22 PM) *
But Im starting to feel bad about hijacking the thread. laugh.gif


Please, carry on biggrin.gif

Sadly I don't have much to contribute to this debate but I am enjoying the ideas being discussed.


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MythrilZenith
post Oct 10 2019, 02:24 PM
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Seeker levels are nice to have when you're being teleported across an unmapped dungeon, but really you only need like 10 seeker levels to get a meaningful (see: 60+) Perception score. Any more than that is just bonus. Even with just 10 levels of Seeker, Gil'Thrialle has been able to map the entire dungeon by herself, can find her direction on most rotators except the deepest ones more often than not, and she already has a solid enough fighting guild (paladin) that she doesn't need the fighting strength. Seeker might be nice for Osiri who have to choose between that and Scavenger for any sort of meaningful A/D, but almost any other race has at least one better fighting option available to them.

That said, Wizard and Seeker are the *only* guilds to get access to Teleport and Displacement naturally. If you only need Ethereal Portal you can get away with only leveling Mage, though, and if you're following OLR then 41 Wizard is enough to get you a halfway-decent casting cost of both EP and Dis, while giving emergency access to Teleport if needed (though the cost is still going to be a hindrance).

I guess in the theoretical "2 guild" run my personal favorite choice is Ninja/Sorcerer because it gives you great melee power, decent enough thieving, good blasting, and the ability to cast any resistance you could want - highly necessary if you're running Human, one of the few races that can run both guilds. The one thing it lacks in is healing, but in a pinch you can always just rely on healing items, though that does mean aging will become a problem especially if you are running solo, and ESPECIALLY if you are running Human. think.gif


Also sorry Lauritson for hijacking the thread laugh.gif

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Oct 10 2019, 02:34 PM


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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Roland
post Oct 10 2019, 08:57 PM
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Thanks for the feedback on my Ninja/Wizard idea (even if it was mostly negative!). I looked over the Wizard's spell list again. They get lots of great spells, but many of them are too expensive to be useful (e.g., Abolish Undead at level 16! WoD and Precog are both cheaper than that!).

Any feedback on my other grind-beating idea - a party of single-guild characters?
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BLauritson
post Oct 10 2019, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Oct 10 2019, 09:57 PM) *
Any feedback on my other grind-beating idea - a party of single-guild characters?


If any idea is to work I do think the single-guild character party might actually be the best one smile.gif

I can't comment about the defence limitations because I've not reached the lowest levels yet but at least all the experience for each character would go straight into levelling their guild and no others.

P.S. Sorry BLauritson for hijacking the thread.

This post has been edited by BLauritson: Oct 10 2019, 10:06 PM


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fischsemmel
post Oct 11 2019, 10:08 AM
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I think nomad+1 could realistically do ok on 15. Warrior, healer, thief, sorc. 175 defense from guild is only 40 less than I usually beat the game with, and you'd get there a lot faster. You won't be lower hits really cause losing some of OLP balances with one guild having higher levels.

Vs an "ideal" party you'd just lack the staying power for a LONG dungeon stay with lower def and (much) worse melee, but you'd still be able to make it work imo.

The most frustrating part for me would be panic buttons when you're always targetted on a character that has no casted spells!


On a similar note, I've actually toyed with the idea of an "all caster" party. Technically all the caster classes get more defense than nomad does. Wizards get nearly as much as the fighting guilds. But it would take soooooo long, laugh.gif. And playing with no thief would be ridiculous. And trying to manage 4 characters that are 90% reliant on spells to kill stuff would be a nightmare of fast button presses.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Oct 11 2019, 10:42 AM
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BLauritson
post Oct 11 2019, 04:50 PM
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I suppose depending on which guilds you chose for each character, it wouldn't be too difficult to choose default spells that would be applicable in most situations. Then again I don't know what it's like on the lowest levels so that strategy might only work up to but not including the last 4-5 levels.

For reference, the way I operate my current party (Warrior/Seeker + 3 spellcasters) is to have Mythraxa casting electrical spells by default, with Gnumen and Nothrya casting Leprosy by default. I always have Nothrya selected and so I have a bunch of other spell types in the buffers depending on the monster types encountered (current choices are Poison, Thunderbolt, Dispel Undead and, for those rare occasions where I actually need to blast the hell out of something and deplete most of my mana in doing so, Word of Death).

Again though, perhaps in the lowest levels one needs to be much more reactive with their spell choices? Although there's also the fact that spell costs would be reduced to their minimum much quicker if the grind was focused only on a single guild so perhaps, again for short sharp runs, the biggest blasters could be set as defaults anyway.

Maybe one day I'll actually push down far enough to see for myself what DL 15 is like laugh.gif


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fischsemmel
post Oct 11 2019, 05:19 PM
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I've never really tested it, but my gut feeling is that needing to rely on the leprosy/static mesh/acidic spray/summon shade "mid tier" sort of spells to clear out anything that isn't trivial will mean you hardly ever get anything accomplished on 13-15 before you need to return to town.

The way to make a "pure" casting party the most effective, imo, might be to also have each caster in thief. That way you can move through the dungeon targetted on different characters during the run without getting robbed blind and surprised in every other room, and can still be able to buffer the exactly right spell for the situation in each room without trying to rapidly switch between characters AND hit buffers. Although I guess thief monsters aren't really the end of the world if you just have gold on you, and not a bunch of nice spheres/cubes/magical dust/etc.
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MythrilZenith
post Oct 12 2019, 01:33 AM
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Yeah, if you're default-casting spells you're not going to get very far before you have to go back to town. And if you have a fast-respawn bug like I do then chances are you aren't going to be able to progress very deep unless you start running through everything.

I've been thinking about a single-class party, or maybe a Nomad +1 party since I doubt anyone would do a solo Nomad with absolutely no other class. Even if you just take Nomad to 30 for the hits, I don't know how much it would *actually* be a problem. Giants basically have this built-in, being able to only access Warrior and Seeker, but they are such dang effective warriors that they should be able to fight through without issue. Other races might not be as good, but if you're doing single-class then you can't get a better Warrior.
Thief might have some issues in combat, but with maxed out dex and sufficiently high Thief level you should be able to open almost any chest, so they'll be getting at least a decent amount of exp from disarming traps. They would rely on the party for most of their damage, though, and you'd want at least one of your best blasting items on your thief - sash, ring, maybe a Lamurian Crown or the like if you get to late game - because you'll want at least one panic button.
Healer or other spellcaster is gonna have it rough. Weaker melee meaning less exp gained, and higher exp required to level, plus you probably have your Thief selected as primary so it'll be harder to get to your mage for your best panic button. And if you put your caster behind your thief they'll be even *more* exp-starved. That said, at least one solid caster - particularly a healer - is darn-near essential to beating the game. There are enough spellcasting items by floor 15 for you to take on the toughest baddies in the dungeon, but for mobs like Eagles and Gargs you're gonna want some power behind your caster.

The *good* news about running a single-class party is that, with only a few exceptions, you're probably going to be able to use most items you find fairly quickly. The biggest exceptions are some of the mid-late Warrior weapons, like the Dwarven Hammer or Avenger, which can be gotten as early as floors 4 or 7 but require levels exceeding 100 to use. That said, your party is going to be a good deal weaker than a party of mixed-guild adventurers with roughly the same main-class level, so you might need to stay on the upper floors until a higher level before venturing further down.

With that in mind, and especially with the number of solid blasting items available to most classes in the game, I don't think a single-guild-per-member party would be all that difficult to succeed with. They might have to take things a bit slower than a similarly-leveled party with multiple guilds per member, but they'll reach those levels without as much grind. I think they'd be more reliant on items, but then you're just hitting to the same sort of issue as you do with having a solo character - gotta get better equipment to survive deeper down. While you don't get the *strongest* characters imaginable I don't think it would really be all that hard to go through the game with a 3-4 man party of single class characters, so long as you at *least* take them to the recommended Nomad 30.
Please, PLEASE take your thieves and casters to Nomad 30 if nothing else.

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Oct 12 2019, 01:38 AM


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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