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> What are you favorite detours on your way to the depths?
Mordion
post Sep 22 2018, 01:00 AM
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What spots should I stop by on my way down (I'm just finishing floor 11)? I still stop by the goblin shaman on 3 and the cockatrice lair on 5 for aards of being. And the twisted elf on 6 for rings. I hit the flame dragon on my way back because it's so convenient but I'm not sure it's worth it. Any other spots I should know/hit regularly?
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korexus
post Sep 23 2018, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 22 2018, 01:00 AM) *
What spots should I stop by on my way down (I'm just finishing floor 11)? I still stop by the goblin shaman on 3 and the cockatrice lair on 5 for aards of being. And the twisted elf on 6 for rings. I hit the flame dragon on my way back because it's so convenient but I'm not sure it's worth it. Any other spots I should know/hit regularly?


I like to call in on the Giant King on level 10. There's also a section near his lair where the set squares form a loop, which is good for a lazy tour round.
Hooded Thief and Butcher on level 7 can give some nice items. The thief isn't too far out of your way, but butcher is a bit of a trek (unless you use portals).

Thinking about it, most of the items you get from all of those are non-consumable. I've probably got rose-tinted glasses from the gold hit they give you the first few times. But I still like fighting the laired monsters. It's nice thematically. rolleyes.gif
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Roland
post Sep 24 2018, 01:01 AM
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Mother of Serpents, who has a lair on level 12, can drop level 14 items, so you'll want to put her on your itinerary.

On level 13, the big room on the eastern side of the level, known popularly as the Graveyard because of the prevalence of demons, devils, and undead found there, is a good place to find Dragon's Blood. But you don't want to go there without 95% drain resistance.
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Nudibranch
post Sep 24 2018, 02:45 PM
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The walkthrough is worth a look. wink.gif


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Mordion
post Sep 24 2018, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Sep 24 2018, 10:45 AM) *
The walkthrough is worth a look. wink.gif


Sure, but which ones are still worth stopping at for a deep delving player?
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Nudibranch
post Sep 25 2018, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 24 2018, 06:26 PM) *
Sure, but which ones are still worth stopping at for a deep delving player?

Ones that are as deep as possible. Unless you're looking for a specific ring or other item, for instance, you don't need to hit the Twisted Elf. Same if you don't need Aards.

The lake on 11 should be your focus for XP runs (ignore piranhas). You're just shy of really good loot on 12 and 13 (Mother of Serpents, Pariahs, and the Graveyard).


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Mordion
post Sep 25 2018, 11:56 PM
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I was hoping for some key spots so I could use pathfinder to solve for the one route to rule them all.
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Nudibranch
post Sep 26 2018, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 25 2018, 07:56 PM) *
I was hoping for some key spots so I could use pathfinder to solve for the one route to rule them all.

You could generate a Pariah-hunting route. I'd omit level 12 as there are only 3 candidate stud rooms and they're far apart, but even late in the game I would tour through 13 and 14 to search for Blessings. (I'd always hit every room on 15 except ones that spawned clean-ups - argh, Rust Monsters.)

But now you're getting into the traveling salesman problem, which might require a different algorithm than the one you're currently using.


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Mordion
post Sep 26 2018, 01:15 AM
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QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Sep 25 2018, 08:47 PM) *
You could generate a Pariah-hunting route. I'd omit level 12 as there are only 3 candidate stud rooms and they're far apart, but even late in the game I would tour through 13 and 14 to search for Blessings. (I'd always hit every room on 15 except ones that spawned clean-ups - argh, Rust Monsters.)

But now you're getting into the traveling salesman problem, which might require a different algorithm than the one you're currently using.


Yes, but I could generate the cost graph fairly easily and feed it to someone else solver. There's enough clustering that N is smaller than the number of rooms.
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Roland
post Apr 16 2019, 06:05 PM
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If you have solved this problem, I could use a Pariah-hunting route. I've resumed running my high-level party, and the three characters have only two Blessings between them.
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Mordion
post Apr 18 2019, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Apr 16 2019, 02:05 PM) *
If you have solved this problem, I could use a Pariah-hunting route. I've resumed running my high-level party, and the three characters have only two Blessings between them.


I haven't done it. I was planning on releasing the tool and letting someone else solve the pairs and feed it to an online salesman solver, but I got distracted. It also currently only builds in Xcode. I'll get it up on Github someday. In addition to the Super Seer, and Pathfinder, code I've also got an automap rock revealer. The neat trick with the revealer is you have to completely explore around an inaccessible square before it will mark the square as rock. It's for the completionists who would otherwise grind out wizards just to teleport them into rock to have it marked.
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korexus
post Apr 18 2019, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Apr 18 2019, 01:16 AM) *
The neat trick with the revealer is you have to completely explore around an inaccessible square before it will mark the square as rock. It's for the completionists who would otherwise grind out wizards just to teleport them into rock to have it marked.


That's nice. Does it work for larger rock areas, where you can't completely surround the square? (e.g. 1,10,20) and rock at the edge of the map?


korexus.
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Mordion
post Apr 19 2019, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (korexus @ Apr 18 2019, 05:29 PM) *
That's nice. Does it work for larger rock areas, where you can't completely surround the square? (e.g. 1,10,20) and rock at the edge of the map?


korexus.


Here’s the algorithm: if a square is unexplorable and all the explorable squares around it are explored then it will reveal the square. (Taking into account wrap around, teleported, the detect rock spell, and anti magic squares that prevent detect rock. )

So, super deep rock would get explored in the middle right off the bat, but there isn’t too much of that around. You’d need it to be 5 thick to pull it off. The only spot I can think of is on 9,17,28 where it’s thick and anti-magic makes the first layer of rock unexplorable.

For 1,10,20 you’d have to detect rock around it before it will reveal it to you. It won’t reveal it to you for free.

It also forces you to do some wrap around detect rock to get the corners of 11.


You folks are getting me all excited and I’m too busy this weekend to polish it up.
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korexus
post Apr 19 2019, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Mordion @ Apr 19 2019, 02:54 AM) *
Here’s the algorithm: if a square is unexplorable and all the explorable squares around it are explored then it will reveal the square. (Taking into account wrap around, teleported, the detect rock spell, and anti magic squares that prevent detect rock. )

So, super deep rock would get explored in the middle right off the bat, but there isn’t too much of that around. You’d need it to be 5 thick to pull it off. The only spot I can think of is on 9,17,28 where it’s thick and anti-magic makes the first layer of rock unexplorable.

For 1,10,20 you’d have to detect rock around it before it will reveal it to you. It won’t reveal it to you for free.

It also forces you to do some wrap around detect rock to get the corners of 11.


You folks are getting me all excited and I’m too busy this weekend to polish it up.



Makes sense. You could avoid the auto-reveal of 'super deep' rock with an iterative approach - for example requiring all explorable and at least one the unexplorable neighbours to be revealed would allow the reveals to chain. But that would add quite a lot of complexity, and make almost no difference to the results, so it's probably not worth it.

The other side effect of this is that the hidden rooms (e.g. 2/18/6,7) will be much more obvious. That's an unavoidable side effect though, and I don't think it would impact the game noticeably.

I was going to ask if you'd considered teleporters making it impossible to cast detect rock. But on reviewing the maps, it seems that there is no rock square that only borders a teleporter and other rock squares. Maybe DA wanted you to do this! cool.gif


kirexus.

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korexus
post Apr 19 2019, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (korexus @ Apr 19 2019, 08:34 PM) *
I was going to ask if you'd considered teleporters making it impossible to cast detect rock. But on reviewing the maps, it seems that there is no rock square that only borders a teleporter and other rock squares. Maybe DA wanted you to do this! cool.gif


On closer examination, 3,7,2 cannot be detected, because it's next to a teleporter or rock on all sides, so that square probably needs to be auto-revealed. There could be others.

If you haven't already written it, the wrap around fact seems like needless detail. It's a bit counter-intuitive that detect rock can wrap (I'd go so far as to call it a bug). So having your tool factor that in may well confuse people who don't know about the wrapping. - The cost of that confusion could be high! On the other hand, you're offering a free tool so it doesn't really matter...


korexus.
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Mordion
post Apr 20 2019, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (korexus @ Apr 19 2019, 07:28 PM) *
On closer examination, 3,7,2 cannot be detected, because it's next to a teleporter or rock on all sides, so that square probably needs to be auto-revealed. There could be others.

If you haven't already written it, the wrap around fact seems like needless detail. It's a bit counter-intuitive that detect rock can wrap (I'd go so far as to call it a bug). So having your tool factor that in may well confuse people who don't know about the wrapping. - The cost of that confusion could be high! On the other hand, you're offering a free tool so it doesn't really matter...


korexus.


3,7,2 will only be revealed after you cast detect rock on the 4 adjacent sides. (or 3 sides and eat the teleporter)

It makes you work for it. smile.gif

Side note, there's an extra bit that the automap has that the map doesn't. It's whether the floor should be black (explored) or gray. Stepping on a square or casting detect rock on the square will set this bit. This is what I key off of for whether or not you've done due diligence in exploring.
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