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Braindead's Mordor Site - Return to Mordor: The Depths Of Dejenol _ General Discussion _ Recording a Mordor run - solo good elf!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 17 2014, 03:13 AM

Hey, everyone! So, in addition to my current major party (evil-aligned 4-man party for mapping and trail-blazing), I've been starting a solo run. Elf is generally considered pretty bad (probably due to not getting warrior, pretty low str/con, and the hidden size numbers), but I decided to say "forget it - solo elf!"

I'm also recording the entirety of this run on youtube channel, if that interests anyone. So here's a link to the https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzMreoOuekQ4P5t30Rx2VogkiBp4nxbE8 if you want to check it out.


Does anyone have any particular tips and tricks to playing an Elf (or just solo character in general) that I should worry about? I'm building it as a Legacy character and following the Optimal Leveling Route. Heck, the first few videos might even be used as a video guide for "how to use the somewhat confusing Optimal Leveling Route for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol."

Any items I should look out for? Any horror stories? I kind of just want to figure out if solo-elf is even viable.


(as for my in-game experience, I've played for hundreds of hours across multiple installs, though the deepest I've ever gotten a party to is around level 10 or 11. Technically 12, but just because I hit a teleporter, everyone got split up and then subsequently died. shocked.gif

Posted by: yadasi Aug 17 2014, 06:00 PM

Good luck fellow adventurer!

I have an elf in my party. They have very high intelligence and wisdom. He's my sorcerer/ paladin.

Since you're going with a good elf, you'll have to work harder to fight (no warrior) and to open chests (no thief guild). You also can't do the 100% optimal leveling route because it requires warrior guild to level 28. Healer is also out of the question (neutral only). But hey, you're solo-- who are you going to resurrect !? happy.gif

So in order to try and survive in all aspects of the game (fighting, healing, thieving, movement spells) you should go (correct me people if I'm not right)

Paladin (fighting and low healing) seeker (movement and perception), scavenger (opening chests), sorcerer (if you want to blast stuff and level a lot faster)
Don't want to go dwarf instead? cool.gif

Posted by: grobblewobble Aug 17 2014, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 17 2014, 05:13 AM) *
Does anyone have any particular tips and tricks to playing an Elf (or just solo character in general) that I should worry about? I'm building it as a Legacy character and following the Optimal Leveling Route. Heck, the first few videos might even be used as a video guide for "how to use the somewhat confusing Optimal Leveling Route for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol."

Any items I should look out for? Any horror stories? I kind of just want to figure out if solo-elf is even viable.

Viable, sure.

Since you're going solo, I recommend companions. They can save you from paralysis and some meat shields are good to have. The mage guild is also your best option for healing. You don't need a very high level in mage to be effective, though.

The optimal levelling route is overrated, imo. Just maxing con and starting out with nomad up to 30 takes far less time and is good enough. I'd mainly focus on sorcerer and scavenger.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 18 2014, 04:08 AM

I honestly forgot that mage got healing spells, so I suppose that's something!

And yeah, dwarves are better all-rounders, I just wanted to try an elf, since I've never really used one before.

It sounds like it's gonna take a lot of leveling in like 5 different classes. I was considering mainly paladin/sorcerer, though mage for the companions and healing might be nice, and I've debated the merits of scavenger for the thieving skill (I'll probably get at least a few levels in scavenger at some point in the future anyway). I'm stocking potions for healing and resistances, though sorcerer will probably be vital for having reliable resistance casting, not to mention general blasting.

Paladin is the best fighting class elves can get, so that's going to be a major focus of mine. Though I'm honestly not experienced enough to know all the merits of leveling Nomad past 30. Apparently they get more A/D than other classes, and I know they get item usage a LOT faster (though only really matters for NCR like daggers), but I'm not sure if it's worth the time spent, especially considering how many other classes I'm going to need to be leveling.

Then again, if I'm leveling a ton of classes, I'll probably want to have a decent selection of NCR items, so nomad might come in handy if only in that respect...


Oh wow, that's another thing to think about: Which guild crest is most helpful? I know the Paladin crest gives some free minor heal casts - are the other guild crests comparable? I know I'll only be able to use the one in the guild I'm currently training, but i guess that's more of a question of "when exploring deeper levels for the first time, what crest will help most?"

Posted by: Nudibranch Aug 18 2014, 04:59 AM

It never hurts to have on hand several free casts of Charm of Opening (Thief Crest). If there's one spell you're casting in the dungeon, that's it. It's a moot consideration for your Elf, though.

Any character is viable (even solo). Defense and HP are critical for survival. Thieving skills become increasingly important to protect your equipment from slime traps. Even a few levels of Scavenger will give you much better thieving than Nomad.

I like the videos. For me, it's so unexpected to see a game I first encountered in 1996 in such a modern context.

Posted by: yadasi Aug 18 2014, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 18 2014, 12:08 AM) *
Oh wow, that's another thing to think about: Which guild crest is most helpful? I know the Paladin crest gives some free minor heal casts - are the other guild crests comparable? I know I'll only be able to use the one in the guild I'm currently training, but i guess that's more of a question of "when exploring deeper levels for the first time, what crest will help most?"


I find the spellcasters' crests (mage, healer, wizard, and sorcerer) stronger than melee guilds' (warrior, nomad, scavenger, ninja) crests. Lots of resistance, good spells -- I mean Soul Entrapment from the mage crest!! wow!! IMO wizard and mage are among the strongest.

Posted by: aardless Aug 19 2014, 01:28 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 17 2014, 05:13 AM) *
I'm also recording the entirety of this run on youtube channel, if that interests anyone. So here's a link to the https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzMreoOuekQ4P5t30Rx2VogkiBp4nxbE8 if you want to check it out.

Whoa! Craziest idea of the year! In a cool kind of way. ;-)

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 17 2014, 05:13 AM) *
Does anyone have any particular tips and tricks to playing an Elf (or just solo character in general) that I should worry about? I'm building it as a Legacy character and following the Optimal Leveling Route. Heck, the first few videos might even be used as a video guide for "how to use the somewhat confusing Optimal Leveling Route for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol."

Any items I should look out for? Any horror stories? I kind of just want to figure out if solo-elf is even viable.
Well, I don't know for sure but I sort of doubt you can win with a solo Elf without a Cap of Death or similar? Might be an interesting challenge idea: win with a solo Elf using the weakest spell casting item you can manage.
I remember AJ (Raffles) used to have a solo Osiri, level, what, 400-500 (?) in both Thief and Healer, so we know it's possible to solo with appropriate blasting power, but as said Elves have access to fairly poor spells (and thieving skill... And fighting skill... Man, they're next to worthless :-S )
Anyway good luck, let us know how that turns out.

Posted by: grobblewobble Aug 19 2014, 03:59 PM

QUOTE (aardless @ Aug 19 2014, 03:28 PM) *
Elves have access to fairly poor spells

Maybe you're mixing up two races here? Elves can join every magic guild..

As for crests, yeah the magic guilds tend to have nice ones, but it doesn't make a major difference.

Will watch the videos soon. Like, when I'm behind a computer and not at work. *ahum*

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 20 2014, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the support and tips, everyone!

I have no idea how far I'm going to even get in this run - as I said, the farthest I've gotten is like level 11, with a full party of 4, and haven't even seen some of these items or monsters that are end-game material - but it's always a good thing to keep in mind!


Here's a REAL concern I have, though; Can only one character own a guild crest at any one time, on any given install? Because I have a ninja/sorc and villain/mage who are about to hit guildmaster level in a different party, and the guild lists actually change the "guildmaster" to the new character. I've never gotten far enough with secondary parties on the same install to really have this be an issue, but I REALLY want to know this...


Actually, are guild crests trade-able? That would really cut down on the issue.

Posted by: yadasi Aug 20 2014, 01:32 AM

"Actually, are guild crests trade-able? That would really cut down on the issue."

Cannot give guild-issued items !!!
If this answers your question not_ok.gif

Posted by: Nudibranch Aug 20 2014, 07:48 AM

Multiple characters can own the same guild crest, yes.

Posted by: aardless Aug 20 2014, 12:54 PM

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Aug 19 2014, 05:59 PM) *
Maybe you're mixing up two races here? Elves can join every magic guild..

You're right, I should have specified good elves. Or non-neutral elves, to be more precise. And I have very little experience with Sorcs, which on paper require(d) too much fiddling with finding the right spell for a given monster (IMHO). Had I known beforehand that Electric Field (well, electric spells in general) was resisted by about the same number of monsters as WoD, I'd have actually played the guild. :-S

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Aug 19 2014, 05:59 PM) *
Will watch the videos soon. Like, when I'm behind a computer and not at work. *ahum*
laugh.gif

Posted by: aardless Aug 20 2014, 12:59 PM

QUOTE (yadasi @ Aug 20 2014, 03:32 AM) *
Cannot give guild-issued items !!!
If this answers your question not_ok.gif
But, as Nudi said you can have multiple copies of a given guild crest: each character that beats the current guildmaster level can have one, and the old one isn't removed from the demoted (or used-to-be) guildmaster...

Posted by: yadasi Aug 20 2014, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (aardless @ Aug 20 2014, 08:59 AM) *
But, as Nudi said you can have multiple copies of a given guild crest: each character that beats the current guildmaster level can have one, and the old one isn't removed from the demoted (or used-to-be) guildmaster...



Damn... blink.gif

That changes everything... I'm gonna rethink my party... My entire way of life!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 21 2014, 05:11 PM

This seems really complicated, like if I want multiple people to be the same class for any period of time, I should stagger my leveling accordingly so I don't force myself to do a hundred or so extra levels for the next character...

If you erase a character, does the original guildmaster come back? Or is that, again, something that only happens on a fresh install?

Posted by: grobblewobble Aug 21 2014, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 21 2014, 07:11 PM) *
This seems really complicated, like if I want multiple people to be the same class for any period of time, I should stagger my leveling accordingly so I don't force myself to do a hundred or so extra levels for the next character...

Well, as long as you don't start a new character from scratch, there's little reason to worry. You never lose your crest, once you have it. Except if it gets slimed, that is.

QUOTE
If you erase a character, does the original guildmaster come back? Or is that, again, something that only happens on a fresh install?

Hmm.. not sure.

Posted by: Nudibranch Aug 22 2014, 06:15 AM

I'm pretty sure deleting a character does not erase him/her as guildmaster, so, fresh install only.

Posted by: Brown Aug 22 2014, 02:20 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 21 2014, 12:11 PM) *
If you erase a character, does the original guildmaster come back? Or is that, again, something that only happens on a fresh install?


You might try deleting (or just renaming) MDATA7.MDR from your "\MORDOR\DATA\" directory. It keeps the list of guildmasters and their current level. If the file isn't there when the game starts up, it is regenerated with the default guildmasters.

Posted by: grobblewobble Aug 22 2014, 06:43 PM

Man, I totally love your videos. Nice. ok.gif

Haven't watched all of them yet. Some comments..

Resist acidity only makes you resist acid attacks (acidic spray and spit), not item destruction.
Charm monster lets you charm reptiles.
Slave mashers count as giants and not as humanoids
I have no idea how to pronounce "skuldragl" either.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 22 2014, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Aug 22 2014, 07:43 PM) *
Man, I totally love your videos. Nice. ok.gif

Haven't watched all of them yet. Some comments..

Resist acidity only makes you resist acid attacks (acidic spray and spit), not item destruction.
Charm monster lets you charm reptiles.
Slave mashers count as giants and not as humanoids
I have no idea how to pronounce "skuldragl" either.


Thanks! biggrin.gif

Yeah, apparently "charm monster" is "Charm reptile" - meaning there is no charm for certain creatures aside from Soul Entrapment (unless slimes count as elementals and lycanthropes as animals...?)

Posted by: aardless Aug 23 2014, 12:00 PM

Skuldragl, no idea. Although I just realised a possible genesis of the name: skull with a drag in it. ;-)
Slimes are slimes and lycanthropes are their own monster class as well; indeed the fact there isn't a charm for every single monster class makes Soul Entrapment all the more useful for entomologists or whatever a monster collector would be called. wink.gif

Posted by: Nudibranch Aug 25 2014, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (aardless @ Aug 23 2014, 08:00 AM) *
or whatever a monster collector would be called. wink.gif

Pokemon trainer? naughty.gif

Posted by: aardless Aug 25 2014, 07:42 PM

laugh.gif! Henceforth Pokemon trainers sahll be called Mages. wink.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 26 2014, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (aardless @ Aug 25 2014, 08:42 PM) *
laugh.gif! Henceforth Pokemon trainers sahll be called Mages. wink.gif



I'd be down for that wink.gif


Anyway, finally getting back into recording the run. I know that I'm not going through this "ultra-hardcore" - it's a legacy character, I'm giving items from older characters, heck I even used the infinite-money glitch to get my starting stat line to something good - but I just felt that a solo run was probably hard enough, coming from someone who has yet to actually "beat" the game.

Posted by: grobblewobble Aug 26 2014, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 26 2014, 02:57 AM) *
the infinite-money glitch

If you feel bad about it, maybe you could consider it a loan and make paying him back part of the challenge? wink.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 26 2014, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Aug 26 2014, 10:08 PM) *
If you feel bad about it, maybe you could consider it a loan and make paying him back part of the challenge? wink.gif


Maybe. Granted, I could probably have gotten the money legitimately anyway, since my evil-aligned party has somewhere in the area of 400,000,000 gold pieces, combined (not really redistributed - the wealthiest is my human ninja/sorcerer, with her 150,000,000 in the bank). That said, once I hit the glut of the mid-levels, I'll probably have more money than I know what to do with (after stats are maxed, equipment is the best it's gonna be for awhile, and I have charged items stocked up)

Posted by: Grog Aug 31 2014, 03:40 PM

Love the videos! Looking forward to viewing more, I hope you keep going with them.


Just a matter of personal preference, here is how i organize the play screen:



When the entire dungeon is desplayed it stays put.

By the way, I ran a solo good elf for awhile. Then I found a Holy Sword and discovered that elves are too week to use it.
That was the end of my elf days.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 1 2014, 12:10 AM

QUOTE (Grog @ Aug 31 2014, 03:40 PM) *
When the entire dungeon is desplayed it stays put.

By the way, I ran a solo good elf for awhile. Then I found a Holy Sword and discovered that elves are too week to use it.
That was the end of my elf days.



Yeah, I've been heavily considering reorganizing my windows to have the entire dungeon floor on one screen. I like scrolling for mid-dungeon stuff, but when I'm doing stuff like portals through the far wall, it's nice to be able to see where I'm going to end up before I commit to it.

And dang. I've never gotten that far, but I guess that means the low strength means an end-game elf's only real chance is to dominate a spellcaster guild.

Posted by: Nudibranch Sep 1 2014, 03:28 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 31 2014, 08:10 PM) *
And dang. I've never gotten that far, but I guess that means the low strength means an end-game elf's only real chance is to dominate a spellcaster guild.

The Holy Sword's nothing special. The Minor Heal it casts is nice but you get that from the Crest anyway, which recharges.

To defeat the hardest monsters/bosses in the game, you need spellcasting anyway, which can come from items if need be. This is all the more true for a solo character.

I've never heard of anyone finishing the game with a solo Elf. So, you could do it as a challenge. Running solo is going to be the hardest aspect of it. And since you can be a Mage, companions can help a heck of a lot. Low Thieving skills will hold you back a bit - you'll occasionally lose items to slime traps on the lowest levels.

Posted by: Grog Sep 1 2014, 05:57 AM

^Yep, melee will only take you so far. Soloist need to be able to cast spells.

Elves have the highest natural intelligence and wisdom potentials, giving them the most spell points.
That's excellent.

Strength is less important. My solo characters do very little fighting.

They do, however, run away alot -- I've come to believe that Dexterity is the most important ability for the soloist.


Posted by: Grog Sep 8 2014, 01:13 AM

Hey! I loved episode 8!

Thanks for trying the new layout...
...you make an excellent point that a full dungeon view is more important on the lower levels than the uppers. I would not blame you if you went back to your original style.

You are going to such great effort with these recordings that I feel guilty sitting in my armchair giving free advice.
That being said, here's somemore free advice:

* When you pull up the automap, try double-clicking on any grey portion within the map, see what happens...

* Also, try exiting to main menu while in the dungeon; then immediately run your character again. See what happens... Now leave the dungeon then go back down. Better?

Not sure what to say about making the automap and the dungeon screen closer to together... maybe put the map in the lower left and the dungeon screen in the upper right?

Anyway, I look forward to episode 9. And good luck with the Hiksae challenge. Those suckers really know how to hide.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 8 2014, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (Grog @ Sep 8 2014, 02:13 AM) *
Hey! I loved episode 8!

Thanks for trying the new layout...
...you make an excellent point that a full dungeon view is more important on the lower levels than the uppers. I would not blame you if you went back to your original style.

You are going to such great effort with these recordings that I feel guilty sitting in my armchair giving free advice.
That being said, here's somemore free advice:

* When you pull up the automap, try double-clicking on any grey portion within the map, see what happens...

* Also, try exiting to main menu while in the dungeon; then immediately run your character again. See what happens... Now leave the dungeon then go back down. Better?

Not sure what to say about making the automap and the dungeon screen closer to together... maybe put the map in the lower left and the dungeon screen in the upper right?

Anyway, I look forward to episode 9. And good luck with the Hiksae challenge. Those suckers really know how to hide.



Oh, don't worry about it. I'm doing these videos for fun, anyway, and I appreciate any advice you can give!

That said, I just finished recording episode 9 before seeing this, so maybe this gives me some things to try for #10 wink.gif


Sorry about the inconsistency in posting videos, I get too distracted by life tongue.gif

Posted by: grobblewobble Sep 9 2014, 09:52 AM

If you get stuck with quests, here is another tip.

You're also a mage, right? It really helps to collect rare monsters. Charm them when you see them, sell them to confinement.

When you get quested for a hiksae, you can then buy one from confinement, attack it (right-click a companion to start a fight) and charm it again. (To prevent killing it accidentally, you could set the combat default option to "soul entrapment".)

Charming the monster again like that counts as "killing" it, as far as the questmaster is concerned. Then you can sell it back to the store when you're done.

Posted by: Grog Sep 9 2014, 08:05 PM

Episode 9: excellent! You actually found a Hik!

Posted by: aardless Sep 18 2014, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Grog @ Sep 9 2014, 10:05 PM) *
Episode 9: excellent! You actually found a Hik!
-cup? crazy.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 10 2016, 04:31 PM

I'M BACK!!
Sorry about the 2-odd year hiatus - different things in my life happened and I wasn't able to record. And then after I record one video I had tech issues and more life issues that kept me from doing more videos for another month or so O_o

But no worries! I'm around 15 episodes right now, *almost* done with Wizard leveling! (it can never finish soon enough)

Anyone here still watching the videos?

Posted by: Nudibranch Sep 14 2016, 02:33 AM

Yep, life happens.

Just an idea - maybe you should post a link on the videos to the forums here. You might be getting some YouTubers who are not Braindeaders (yet).

Posted by: kwizzlehazzizle Sep 14 2016, 12:36 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 10 2016, 05:31 PM) *
I'M BACK!!
Sorry about the 2-odd year hiatus - different things in my life happened and I wasn't able to record. And then after I record one video I had tech issues and more life issues that kept me from doing more videos for another month or so O_o

But no worries! I'm around 15 episodes right now, *almost* done with Wizard leveling! (it can never finish soon enough)

Anyone here still watching the videos?



Hey, I've been watching your videos, keep putting them out there!

Also, I find your DnD digressions interesting even though I've never really played.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 16 2016, 09:13 PM

QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Sep 14 2016, 03:33 AM) *
Yep, life happens.

Just an idea - maybe you should post a link on the videos to the forums here. You might be getting some YouTubers who are not Braindeaders (yet).


Of course! I linked to the site in the description of my first video already, but I just added a link into the descriptions of all my other videos now.
Btw, just got episode 16 finished! Too bad i accidentally muted my microphone 5 seconds in. And then saved the backup right after. No going back from that!

Posted by: Grog Sep 23 2016, 04:54 PM

Just finished watching Holy Crusade #17! Excellent! Thanks for creating it.

Your elf is high in spell points - 225. Nice.

I'd be curious to see what your spell cost is to cast charm of opening. As a Lv 30 Nomad it should be listed in your spellbook.

Anyway, can't wait for #18 -

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 24 2016, 04:29 AM

QUOTE (Grog @ Sep 23 2016, 04:54 PM) *
Anyway, can't wait for #18 -


Well wait no longer, it's up! https://youtu.be/OZ0bJYM1gL4

Yeah, I checked out what you said about charm of opening. 185 points isn't very reasonable, though...

Posted by: Grog Sep 24 2016, 05:10 PM

^True...

...but if you ever found a locked chest that you just had to open, you could run up to the city to restore your 225 spell points, then run back down and cast charm of opening.

Not the most elegant way to play, but it works.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 7 2016, 09:33 PM

Episode 19 is finalizing right now, hot off the presses! Catch it here when it's done: https://youtu.be/YyA_DmnuxBY

Oh, fast leveling, how I've missed you!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 7 2017, 03:47 AM

I'm back! And I've been recording on and off here and there. Up to 24 episodes now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAFsblIuh7w


I've been thinking of doing more focused, informational Mordor videos. For instance, brief but precise info videos on simple topics, such as:
-What is the OLR and why does it work the way it does?
-Tricks/routes for faster leveling at low/mid/high levels
-How to set up a fresh install for legacy characters

Would there be interest in videos like these? And what topics would you like to see covered? I know I'm not the best person for everything, but I know a decent amount and have the capability to share that knowledge with others.

I also know that a lot of that info is available on this site, but sometimes text can only explain so much, so this would sort of supplement and give examples of the material here.

Posted by: cartmann Oct 9 2017, 11:59 AM

Hey MithrilZenith

I feel that a quick video on cleaning up the Mordor data files for a clean legacy char install would be nice, but perhaps totally redundant.
I mean, to even play Mordor in the first place, you've got to get DOSBox running an old windows or you have to set up a VM. If you're capable of that, then the backing up and deletion of a few files isn't totally out of reach.

The OLR, well I wouldn't like to say to be honest, I personally prefer to read all the knowledge about the game rather than watch/listen to someone talk about it, but my opinion shouldn't stop you!

And good levelling routes/spots for low/mid/high sounds absolutely spot on, I'd love to see it, along with some dungeon-level specific hints (such as monsters requiring a companion to be killed etc.)

Welcome back and thanks for all your videos, I do enjoy them! I'm yet to watch 24 all the way but nonetheless, glad to see more biggrin.gif

Posted by: sneroplex Oct 10 2017, 04:13 PM

Welcome back! I finally watched one of your videos (the most recent one) and got a kick out of it. Good stuff!

It's been some time since you started this and asked for tips, but since I'm running a Good Elf in my current party that's made it to the end I'll share my thoughts.

The main strength of an Elf is that they have the highest spell points pool and can join every magic guild. I think you should try and leverage this and lead with a magic guild. Sorcerer is very powerful from early on and throughout the whole game, you really can't go wrong with them - the only drawback is that the last boss is resistant to their spells. Wizard is also very strong but takes a little while longer to match the efficiency of Sorcerers, but I do think they're stronger in the end game as they have full Mind and Damage schools and can kill everything. Also movement spells and cheap teleport are very handy.

So I would either take Sorc to the end OR to take it to 79 for minimum cost resistances and level Wizard from then on.

Take Mage to 95 or 175 for heals and access to Soul Entrapment. Pretty useful to have, especially the healing. 95 gives you access to mage cubes I believe, and 175 is minimum cost Heal spell.

Then you'll have a support guild in the form of Paladin for melee or Scavenger for thieving. I think the choice is up to you, I usually like to run a thieving character so you gain XP from disarming traps and so you hold on to your gold and items, and don't miss out on loot. Elf Paladins aren't all that strong due to the low strength and small size, you would probably find yourself relying on spells for killing most things - even if you do level Paladin significantly higher than your magic guilds. You could run both but it'll take longer. Maybe take Scavenger to 195 for minimum cost Charm of Opening then go Paladin until max A/D.

I've never ran a solo character to the end but I don't see why an Elf can't do it, might just have to grind more than other characters.

Posted by: Roland Oct 10 2017, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (sneroplex @ Oct 10 2017, 12:13 PM) *
So I would either take Sorc to the end OR to take it to 79 for minimum cost resistances and level Wizard from then on.

Take Mage to 95 or 175 for heals and access to Soul Entrapment. Pretty useful to have, especially the healing. 95 gives you access to mage cubes I believe, and 175 is minimum cost Heal spell.

Sorceror's resistance spells reach minimum cost at 91. Mage's heal spells reach minimum cost at 177.

Otherwise, sneroplex's advice for configuring a solo Good Elf all sounds reasonable to me.

Posted by: sneroplex Oct 10 2017, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Oct 10 2017, 02:57 PM) *
Sorceror's resistance spells reach minimum cost at 91. Mage's heal spells reach minimum cost at 177.

Otherwise, sneroplex's advice for configuring a solo Good Elf all sounds reasonable to me.


Right you are, friend. I came back to edit my post to Sorcerer 91 and Mage 177 but you beat me to it smile.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 12 2017, 05:40 AM

Either way, looks like I have a million years of grinding ahead of me!

I'll probably stop making videos of every single run, and just do new ones when I'm about to hit some new landmark or start some new thing like a new class or going to a new floor. I've never gotten any character that high level in a single class, even in a party of 4, and the deepest I've ever hit the dungeon (on purpose) is around level 12 - I distinctly remember exploring the massive lake and then stumbling into a teleporter and then everyone got lost and died alone. disappointed.gif

That was my last install, which I lost after moving computers and the like. This current install I've had since before starting the videos, and is still going strong. I'm leading with a party that's just starting to hit level 100 in their main guilds, and just explored pretty much all of level 8 quite comfortably (except for when I ran into ninjas in an anti-magic square).

Still, thanks for the tips! Even when I take a break, i still come back to this game just about every year and pick up where I left off. I might be far older than my characters by the time I delve the depths of floor 15, but one day I will. I love this game too much not to.

Posted by: sneroplex Oct 12 2017, 01:56 PM

I know what you mean. This summer I had free time to play Mordor and decided to go as far as I could. I ended up blitzing the end with a 4-man party with their main guilds around level 250 and support guilds just over level 200 to cover all the bases. They clocked just over 100 hours.

Mind you I wasn't making videos at the time so it went pretty fast laugh.gif.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Dec 10 2017, 01:56 AM

Well, I'm up to... 29 parts? Really? Wow this has been going on for awhile.

https://youtu.be/viQnYN6Sjdw

Currently only up to 86 mage, 43 scav, 39 nomad, 41 wiz, ~40 sorcerer. I was blitzing mage for awhile but I switched to sorc to try and drop my res costs before going deeper. Right now I'm able to farm floor 5 fairly effectively, and I should be able to survive most of 6. I might end up farming the lake on 7 as a primary exp source once my Leprosy hits minimum cost.

Any suggestions on what order I should do things? Your advice on what level to bring mage and sorc to have been really helpful.

Posted by: Roland Dec 10 2017, 03:06 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Dec 9 2017, 08:56 PM) *
Currently only up to 86 mage, 43 scav, 39 nomad, 41 wiz, ~40 sorcerer. I was blitzing mage for awhile but I switched to sorc to try and drop my res costs before going deeper. Right now I'm able to farm floor 5 fairly effectively, and I should be able to survive most of 6. I might end up farming the lake on 7 as a primary exp source once my Leprosy hits minimum cost.

Any suggestions on what order I should do things? Your advice on what level to bring mage and sorc to have been really helpful.

I would take him to 45 in nomad. Nomad levels come quickly, and up through 45 they give you quick gains in att/def. He would not reach 70 defense in his other guilds until after level 100.

I would continue to 91 in mage - that will drop the cost of Flickering Doom to 7 and Summon Shade to 9. Or you could continue to level 110, which would let you equip a Mithril Dagger! A weapon with three swings and a backstab bonus will speed things up a lot! (Since daggers are not guild restricted, you would then be able to use it in all your other guilds, as well.)

You will have to take him to 75 in sorc if you want to minimize the cost of Leprosy.

If you care about the cost of Charm of Opening, continue in scavenger until at least level 59. Until that level, you will get a drop in the cost of COO every time you gain a spell level.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Dec 10 2017, 04:14 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Dec 9 2017, 08:06 PM) *
I would take him to 45 in nomad. Nomad levels come quickly, and up through 45 they give you quick gains in att/def. He would not reach 70 defense in his other guilds until after level 100.

I would continue to 91 in mage - that will drop the cost of Flickering Doom to 7 and Summon Shade to 9. Or you could continue to level 110, which would let you equip a Mithril Dagger! A weapon with three swings and a backstab bonus will speed things up a lot! (Since daggers are not guild restricted, you would then be able to use it in all your other guilds, as well.)

You will have to take him to 75 in sorc if you want to minimize the cost of Leprosy.

If you care about the cost of Charm of Opening, continue in scavenger until at least level 59. Until that level, you will get a drop in the cost of COO every time you gain a spell level.


The difficulty with equipping a mithril dagger is that I have to find one first wink.gif

thanks for the tips though. I honestly don't know much about the class-specific mechanics of Mordor, like what minimum casting cost is, the levels to get it, and atk/def growth rates. Honestly though without playing in a very analytical way and crunching the numbers (or just looking at the game code) I don't know how you would ever figure this stuff out.

Posted by: Roland Dec 12 2017, 03:51 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Dec 9 2017, 11:14 PM) *
thanks for the tips though. I honestly don't know much about the class-specific mechanics of Mordor, like what minimum casting cost is, the levels to get it, and atk/def growth rates. Honestly though without playing in a very analytical way and crunching the numbers (or just looking at the game code) I don't know how you would ever figure this stuff out.

Most of the information I shared about spell costs came from Seth's Spell Cost Tool, v. 1.06, which you can download from this site. It is an Excel file with lots of useful data and formulae.

As an 86th-level mage, you can already use a Mithril-Shod Staff. It might make sense to wait until you find one of those and then use it to help you power-level to 110 in the mage guild. Mithril-Shod Staff and Mithril Dagger are both level 7 items.

Are you planning to level in the paladin guild? You did not mention it earlier.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Dec 30 2017, 04:17 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Dec 11 2017, 08:51 PM) *
Are you planning to level in the paladin guild? You did not mention it earlier.


That was the initial plan - way back in 2014 - and I might still go for that to some extent, but seeing how I don't really need it for healing and scavenger isn't *that* much worse and I need that for minimum cost CoO anyhow, I might only delve into Paladin far enough to get the second multiple swing if at all.

Which is sad, because the whole reason I named the series "holy crusade" was because Paladin was going to be my main class, with spellcaster support levels.

Posted by: Roland Jan 1 2018, 07:08 PM

You probably should not level in Paladin at all unless you are going to stick with it. The attack formula works in a perverse way. It is based on the character's level in the guild with the highest fighting ability (column E in the Guild Abilities table). The Paladin's 10 trumps the Scavenger's 7. Therefore, if you have any levels at all in Paladin, the attack formula will use your Paladin level, not your Scavenger level, when computing damage.

Since the attack formula squares the value of fighting ability, the Paladin's 10 is effectively twice as good as the Scavenger's 7.

A Scavenger's A/D doesn't reach maximum until level 522. Paladin maxes out at 430. At maximum, the Paladin's A/D is +27/+36 vis a vis the Scavenger's. That's not a huge difference, but it will take a while to get to 522 in Scavenger.

In one respect, the two guilds are complementary: Paladin gets critical hit, while Scavenger gets backstab.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Apr 16 2018, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jan 1 2018, 01:08 PM) *
You probably should not level in Paladin at all unless you are going to stick with it. The attack formula works in a perverse way. It is based on the character's level in the guild with the highest fighting ability (column E in the Guild Abilities table). The Paladin's 10 trumps the Scavenger's 7. Therefore, if you have any levels at all in Paladin, the attack formula will use your Paladin level, not your Scavenger level, when computing damage.

Since the attack formula squares the value of fighting ability, the Paladin's 10 is effectively twice as good as the Scavenger's 7.


This is actually VERY useful information! And something I would have no freaking way of figuring out without looking directly at the game's calculations.

I actually leveled Paladin fairly early, though only to 22 because I got caught up in leveling my mage classes. No wonder my physical damage is stuck. Looks like my leveling path is set in stone now, because I dipped into most of my available guilds.

Edit: Well, Episode 29 (29? wow) is going up right now, if anyone's still watching this. I know it's been a break of a couple months but it's nice to have something to come back to and just ramble over. https://youtu.be/NR19u2Ipz1o

Posted by: Grog Apr 18 2018, 02:57 PM

Just finished watching Game of Thrones episode #29. Cool! Keep 'em coming!


Posted by: MythrilZenith Nov 24 2018, 01:35 AM

Realized I never posted that Ep 30 was up. here's 31 though! https://youtu.be/wJrZDOjYuAQ

I decided I want to level in Paladin all the way to the extra swing before rededicating myself back to mage. Not only is it faster leveling (like half the exp needed compared to a similarly-leveled magic guild), but I also feel a very noticeable difference every 10 levels or so, both in equipment available and the damage I actually do. I've started 1-shotting most mobs on level 4, which I couldn't say I was doing before. It also makes anti-magic zones less like death-traps.

Posted by: Grog Nov 28 2018, 06:56 PM

Nice!

As you say, the game is relaxing, or calming, or something. Not boring.
If a player gets bored with Mordor, well, they've worked themselves into a strategy rut.

I don't get bored. After all these years of playing I can still learn something.
-- I had no idea that 'Goodies' could not kill Good companions. Great message ("...it's against your ways...")


Posted by: Roland Nov 29 2018, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (Grog @ Nov 28 2018, 02:56 PM) *
I don't get bored. After all these years of playing I can still learn something.
-- I had no idea that 'Goodies' could not kill Good companions. Great message ("...it's against your ways...")


Hmmm . . . so there is a reason to change companions' alignments!

Posted by: Grog Nov 30 2018, 05:15 PM

Purely silly free advice...

If you want to finish up lv. 2, there are rooms between the rocks (18,5,2 & 18,6,2) and (23,6,2 & 24,6,2)
Have to displace in. Save some sp to displace out, otherwise you will be stuck in there.

Also silly: you can go to 19,1,2, face south, and detect rock. Then Ethereal Portal (if you dare sneaky.gif )

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jan 31 2019, 12:55 AM

New part today - I wanted to see how deep I could go in a single run! I made it down to the Vampire on floor 9, so all things considered I'm doing alright.
Video link: https://youtu.be/P3O1DJNlq1I

My levels so far are (roughly):
-Nomad 73
-Paladin 111
-Scavenger 97
-Mage 86
-Sorcerer 94
-Wizard 49
485 HP, 250 Spells, all stats natural-capped, 465M gold banked.

Leprosy and Acid Spray are my go-to spells of choice for most encounters, with a Ring of Frost and the sorcerer crest Pillar of Flame for things like slimes which resist both disease and acid. Paralyzing Death is a good emergency button for most other enemy types.

Leveling has gotten fairly slow even with my bugged level 4 grinding, so I'm going to be diving deeper on a regular basis. I still can barely survive beyond floor 7 with the help of healing items (thank goodness my combined Crystal of Healing didn't get stolen), so it's going to be awhile before I dive even deeper.

Posted by: Mordion Feb 1 2019, 03:43 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jan 30 2019, 07:55 PM) *
Leveling has gotten fairly slow even with my bugged level 4 grinding


Are you talking about level 4 respawning quickly? I've been looking into the dungeon spawn timer and I'm interested in what's causing it. If you're willing to help me experiment, please make a backup and then delete MDATA10.mdr to reset the state of the dungeon (monsters and chests) and see if that fixes the spawn rate.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Feb 1 2019, 04:59 AM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Jan 31 2019, 08:43 PM) *
Are you talking about level 4 respawning quickly? I've been looking into the dungeon spawn timer and I'm interested in what's causing it. If you're willing to help me experiment, please make a backup and then delete MDATA10.mdr to reset the state of the dungeon (monsters and chests) and see if that fixes the spawn rate.


Yeah, it's the dungeon timer issue.
I'll look into that and let you know. The issue I have affects all dungeon levels 4 and below, which makes it really scary to delve deeper since I know monsters behind me will be back before I turn around. Level 4 has like a 2 minute timer, and then the timer seems to increase by 2-3 minutes per floor instead of 5.

Posted by: Grog Feb 2 2019, 05:33 AM

ok.gif
Nice delve!
Looking forward to the next one.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Feb 18 2019, 06:26 PM

... wow I guess I didn't post this here yet.

My YT Channel finally reached 100 subs, and Mordor is a big part of that. So in case anyone hadn't seen it yet, here's the vid where I basically lay out my story, with the backdrop of leveling Sorcerer to 100. https://youtu.be/-Vl3QzLK6R4

This character is really slow-going, mostly because I only play mordor around when I record videos for it, which is... well, pretty infrequent. So all in all this character has been around for about 5 years, and I'm just barely able to survive a few steps into floor 9. Still, it's the best character I've made so far!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Apr 4 2019, 03:47 AM

Episode 36, in which I ramble about philosophy and the like.
https://youtu.be/0ldsnTYf0oI

I started leveling Wizard again, but I've realized that the only spells I'm really getting out of Wizard are Displacement, Teleport and Word of Death. These don't seem relevant enough for me to bother spending so much more time leveling Wizard when I'm already pretty deep into both Mage and Sorcerer, so I've decided to level more into Mage for a bit to bring down the price of heals and some other spells.
I also find that the Sorcerer crest gives me the most "bang for my buck" as it were. An actually decent Crest spell (Power from the wizard sucks), resistances that complement my Elven mind and magic res instead of just doubling down, and the Sorcerer spells are the ones I find myself casting on a most regular basis (namely Leprosy, Acid Spray and Paralyzing Death). Once I get Mage to a point I'm happy with (as I will need strong and efficient heals when delving deep into the dungeon), I'm going to charge on through with Sorcerer. At least until I hit a point where I want to try for the second Paladin swing (heaven help me when THAT happens).

Posted by: BLauritson Apr 4 2019, 06:21 PM

I must say I rather enjoyed watching that episode. It's the first of yours I've watched as I'm generally too restless to watch game-play videos but it was interesting to hear your musings against the backdrop of Mordor's music and it was enjoyable to watch your forays into the dungeon. I even learned of a secret door on DL 3 that I never knew about before so that's a bonus!

Keep up the good work smile.gif

Posted by: Roland Apr 4 2019, 08:11 PM

I think focusing on Mage makes sense. Even though the game provides a lot of healing items, it's nice to be able to heal with your own spell points.

One thing to keep in mind when deciding where to stop leveling in Wizard: Wizards can use Spheres (Dislocation and Doom) at 77, and Cubes (Draining and Teleporting at 103).

Posted by: MythrilZenith Apr 7 2019, 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Apr 4 2019, 02:11 PM) *
One thing to keep in mind when deciding where to stop leveling in Wizard: Wizards can use Spheres (Dislocation and Doom) at 77, and Cubes (Draining and Teleporting at 103).


Good to know. I figure that, at the very least, if I find a sphere I can't use but want to, I can go back and catch up my wizard level easily enough, but since I don't have those spheres or cubes on me (or at least I don't think so) then it's not a high priority for me.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Apr 26 2019, 02:30 AM

Episode 37 is up https://youtu.be/y3XOeaFgzGQ

So basically the same day I posted my above post (that I might decide to catch up if I ever find a sphere I want to use), I found two Spheres of Dislocation, with enough charges that even after selling the first part of the first one to the store, I combined them and now have a 42-use sphere. That should be convenient for my deeper runs. So, because of that (and since leveling anything else was taking forever due to requiring 70k+ exp per level), I grinded wizard to 77.

Right now I'm stuck between wanting to level mage for cheaper heals, wanting to level paladin for reasonably cheaper heals (even if it takes longer, at least I'll be getting combat strength at the same time), or just leveling sorcerer until I'm happy with my offensive spells. Plus, I don't know if I want to continue with Sorcerer or Paladin into endgame. Is there a significant bonus to anything from the currently-joined guild compared to guilds you just have levels in, outside of what equipment you can use? That might make up my mind, because with Paladin I can wear a lot better armor/weapons plus shields (at least until I get some good spellcaster equipment and hit the level to use mystic shields). Though not having to re-cast fire, cold and electric resistance every trip / blackout is nice.

Speaking of which, who decided to name it "electrical resistance" instead of "Resist Electricity?" Every other freaking resistance spell I can just type "Resist F" or the like, whereas this one I have to type "Electrical r" to cast. It's a minor thing but when I'm dealing with the slight input lag from emulation and recording setup it just means more chance for me to mess up and waste 5 seconds.

Posted by: MythrilZenith May 20 2019, 08:58 PM

Episode 38 is here - I've been grinding Sorcerer a bit. https://youtu.be/XbQz647CsNc

So I've finally gotten some equipment upgrades! My first Mithril-Shod Staff, and I'm almost hitting the level to use the Mystic Shield - ten more to go!

Level 7 just feels like the perfect place to level in - the lake is full of monsters that almost all die to a single spell cast and drop items of levels I'm just hitting the ability to use. I'm finding the urge to go deeper, but exploring floor 8 kind of scares me since you start hitting a lot of dangerous monsters of all types, as well as since I'm not sure it will be more efficient than floor 7. I've never really done much on floor 8, it's either been staying on 7 or diving all the way to 9-10 for bosses and a chance at good items.

I also found a *totally* useful item - a Crystal Sword. Does this thing just drop super late for no reason? It's like a level 30-ish Nomad item, only usable by the regular sword-wielding classes, and only has 2 hits and a 1.5 multiplier. I guess if it really drops this late it's good for countering weapon resistance, but seriously, why does this thing exist?!

Let me know where else you'd recommend going, and what I should keep leveling. Your advice has been really great so far!

Posted by: Roland May 20 2019, 09:26 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ May 20 2019, 04:58 PM) *
I also found a *totally* useful item - a Crystal Sword. Does this thing just drop super late for no reason? It's like a level 30-ish Nomad item, only usable by the regular sword-wielding classes, and only has 2 hits and a 1.5 multiplier. I guess if it really drops this late it's good for countering weapon resistance, but seriously, why does this thing exist?!

Mordor has several useful low-level items that are rather rare. Among these are Lethe Dagger, Crystal Sword, Dominator, and Ring of Venom. You're lucky to find them before you've obtained an even better item. To this day, I still have not found a neutral-aligned Dominator.

Posted by: MythrilZenith May 21 2019, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ May 20 2019, 03:26 PM) *
Mordor has several useful low-level items that are rather rare. Among these are Lethe Dagger, Crystal Sword, Dominator, and Ring of Venom. You're lucky to find them before you've obtained an even better item. To this day, I still have not found a neutral-aligned Dominator.


*looks in store and sees the Dominator I found is indeed neutral* umm...

But yeah. I feel like I've never really had a problem finding Lethe Daggers and Rings of Venom (though the ring is such a minor upgrade it's not really worth it and the lethe dagger is just a steel dagger with different str/dex reqs).

Like, the crystal sword is best-in-slot for its level, sure, but for a character going deep enough to need it for weapon resistance they likely already have levels in another class, so a good dagger will probably do just as well if not better for them. The extra 6 defense (which is rare for 1-handed swords) and the 1.5 multiplier are nothing to sneeze at, but it just boggles my mind that such a low-level weapon would drop so deep and be so rare.

Then again, this is Mordor we're talking about. :shrug:

Posted by: Nudibranch May 22 2019, 05:19 AM

7 is definitely the best playground for leveling in the entire game. Go deeper when you get bored with it, but you can easily gain dozens of guild levels on 7.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 3 2019, 07:57 PM

New video: https://youtu.be/5S6LbuxMWTw

I've hit 180 sorcerer, making this I'm pretty sure my highest level character ever in Mordor, across all of my installs. I'm even able to survive down to floor 9 decently well, though with my current leveling route I can't explore much on 9 thanks to running low on spell points. Looks like I might want to hold off on lake clearing if I really want to search for better items.

Found my first ever non-white sash today. My only question is what I'm going to use 94 casts of Charm Dragon on?

So I've hit the point where I'm using the best equipment I can find for my character, but aside from the Mystic Shield I feel like I am not using the best equipment I could be. This is where a lot of the drive to explore level 9+ is coming from - if I can acquire better equipment, then maybe I'll be able to not take 100+ damage from each encounter where my spells don't immediately kill my foe (freaking Wretches). Or maybe I'll just need to bring out the big guns like Paralyzing Death more frequently.

Any recommendations for prepping for deep exploration? Also, what spells are worth using in your opinions? I've been sticking to the Element spells since they have the best damage-per-cast and don't seem to be resisted by much, but slimes and certain undead (like wisps) are giving me trouble.


Also, did you ever notice that floor 7's rock squares spell out R H in the lower-right hand side? I didn't until I viewed the map thumbnail from far away. I knew about the D A in on floor 2 for awhile though.

Posted by: Roland Jun 3 2019, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 3 2019, 03:57 PM) *
Found my first ever non-white sash today. My only question is what I'm going to use 94 casts of Charm Dragon on?

When you get down to 11, try White Dragons. They're easy to find in their lair. Until then, Mundragons are the best you can do.

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 3 2019, 03:57 PM) *
Any recommendations for prepping for deep exploration? Also, what spells are worth using in your opinions? I've been sticking to the Element spells since they have the best damage-per-cast and don't seem to be resisted by much, but slimes and certain undead (like wisps) are giving me trouble.

Wisps are Elementals, not Undead. They are resistant to Mind, Magic, Paralysis, and Acid. If you're leveling in Sorcerer, use your crest on them. Otherwise, Thunder Bolt or Static Mesh is probably your best option. But make sure you have Mental Resistance before tangling with them.

Posted by: grumpsey Jun 4 2019, 08:02 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 4 2019, 05:57 AM) *
Any recommendations for prepping for deep exploration? Also, what spells are worth using in your opinions? I've been sticking to the Element spells since they have the best damage-per-cast and don't seem to be resisted by much, but slimes and certain undead (like wisps) are giving me trouble.


Grats on the new video! Keep it up! Just in case but good chance you already know this but RESISTANCES RESISTANCES! I found casting all my resistance spells (resist cold, mind, mental, paralysis, electrical, sight veil, protect etc.) is so useful. 180 Sorc it is minimum costs for you and a 2SP resistance can save you a lot of HP if you get breathed / elemental attacked. After 9 I found quite a lot of monsters that have an elemental attack and resistances will reduce these by 50%, not to mention the 95% spell damage reduction. Once you get high lvl heals and huge HP you might not use all of them every run down but until then I find them very useful conserving HP.

You don' want to run into something which casts x Death and not have resistances on!

Just my 2 cents from another non veteran player!




Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 6 2019, 03:09 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jun 3 2019, 04:04 PM) *
When you get down to 11, try White Dragons. They're easy to find in their lair. Until then, Mundragons are the best you can do.


Wisps are Elementals, not Undead. They are resistant to Mind, Magic, Paralysis, and Acid. If you're leveling in Sorcerer, use your crest on them. Otherwise, Thunder Bolt or Static Mesh is probably your best option. But make sure you have Mental Resistance before tangling with them.


Mundragons seem decent, they start showing up on 9, right? I guess since white sashes stop really being useful against anything stronger than the lake monsters on 6/7 I might as well use those up and start carrying around the new one then. Also wisps are elementals? *smh* D&D has been lying to me!

QUOTE (grumpsey @ Jun 4 2019, 02:02 AM) *
Grats on the new video! Keep it up! Just in case but good chance you already know this but RESISTANCES RESISTANCES!
Just my 2 cents from another non veteran player!


Yup, I don't go anywhere without full resistances. I get about half of them from items, but everything else (including the critical ones like stone, paralysis and drain) I self-cast. It only takes me 26sp to cast all the resistances and other spells I need, but it's SO worth it. The value of resistances was beat into my head the first time I played the full release version (and got down to level 4). Never leave home without them!


So it sounds like electrical spells are the way to go for everything I'm not currently able to kill off easily. I still use my crest in clearing out Giant Crocodiles in floor 6/7 lakes, but if I'm going to be diving deeper I might want to just bypass those and keep my SP and item uses in reserve.

As an elf, spells are definitely my go-to for killing anything reasonably quickly. Currently my buffers look something like this:
1. Crest of the Sorcerer
2. Leprosy
3. Acid Spray
4. Paralyzing Death
5. White Sash (soon to be replaced)
6. Magician's Cap (pretty meh on this tbh, dazzle at 75 kinda sucks)
7. Unicorn Horn (though i might as well just use this from my inventory)
8. Charm of Opening (convenience)
9. Soul Entrapment (don't use it often, it's still at 43 since I'm only like 100 mage but I like having it on command)
10. Ring of Frost (the panic-button).

What are your favorite buffer setups for a sorcerer? Granted I know most players tend to use parties instead of solo, but I'm trying to figure out which spells are worth buffering and which ones have short enough unique names that I can type quickly (like Dazzle is only c-DAZ).

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 10 2019, 08:24 PM

New episode! https://youtu.be/m7L8O3nljsI
I'm trying to get a video up every week, doing a whole "Mordor Monday" type thing, since that's when my schedule is open enough for regular recording sessions. Still gonna be doing off-screen grinding between parts, though. If I keep at it then I'll eventually finish this game!

So I'm almost 200 sorc right now, and found a Vampire Fang, which should help a lot. I switched up my equipment and now floor 9 isn't too big of a threat (unless I run into something like Mundragons, who CAN'T BE CHARMED AT FULL HP by the purple sash, meaning they're practically guaranteed to deal a ton of damage with breath attacks). Floor 10 is a different story, especially if I run into Lava Giants or the like.

Man, it feels weird mapping a dungeon without looking at the dungeon map again. I was glad I remembered what the Giant King room looked like or I would have blundered into it and gotten myself obliterated. This is the time I should probably keep some healing items in my inventory again.

Posted by: Roland Jun 10 2019, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 10 2019, 04:24 PM) *
So I'm almost 200 sorc right now, and found a Vampire Fang, which should help a lot. I switched up my equipment and now floor 9 isn't too big of a threat (unless I run into something like Mundragons, who CAN'T BE CHARMED AT FULL HP by the purple sash, meaning they're practically guaranteed to deal a ton of damage with breath attacks). Floor 10 is a different story, especially if I run into Lava Giants or the like.

I see the problem. The average "damage" from a Purple Sash is just 142 hp (range 90-194), while Mundragons average 165 hp (range 124-206). It looks like the sash should work on a Mundragon about 1 time in 4. Paralyzing Death is the cheapest spell that will be effective against Mundragons for a level-200 Sorcerer.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 12 2019, 02:45 PM

1 in 4, eh? Yeah I'm already kind of missing my white sashes laugh.gif, they stopped being effective awhile ago but at least they were good area clear for weaker mobs like tiger sharks. Still, 94-194 isn't a terrible range. If only the bind of the spell wasn't garbage it would actually be pretty useful for bringing along floor 6-7 dragons.

Oh wait I'm Good aligned, which is probably why these dragons break bind levels so easy - they're evil, aren't they?

Posted by: Roland Jun 12 2019, 11:05 PM

Of 18 kinds of dragons, 1 is good, 10 are neutral, and 7 are evil. But I don't think alignment is a factor in breaking binding.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 17 2019, 07:38 PM

Another monday, another Mordor vid. If I keep myself on this pace then I'll finish this game eventually!
https://youtu.be/ZXLEzB0E8UM

So I've been trying to level up some of my lower guild levels - mostly Scavenger for thieving ability, with some Paladin thrown in for A/D and fight skill - but that progress has been slowed by quests. I know it's gonna take longer to complete every quest than just to pass on them, especially when they're only de-leveling me by like 4, but when I lose an equipment tier level it just feels really bad. Plus I'm using this as an excuse to fill my confinement, and level other classes while searching for my questing quarry, as it were. Currently on the docket is a Morgul, a "very rare" giant from level 4 whom I've only ever found like 20 of on this install. I found one off-screen, but it got killed by its friends after I charmed it sad.gif .

In terms of my character's overall survival, I think I should be able to go pretty deep, but with the rate I have to use high-level spells to kill enemies I'm gonna have to start packing spell scrolls and healing gems to keep pushing deeper.

Currently sitting at:
Hits - 679
Spells - 250

Sorcerer: 208
Paladin: 115
Scavenger: 105
Mage: 100
Wizard: 77
Nomad: 73

Leprosy and Acid Spray are starting to cap out on what they can reliably kill as of floors 9-10, so I have Paralyzing Death on standby. Static Mesh is a pretty solid backup, and I found a Static Sash which is a pretty reliable panic-button as well. I'm wanting to get more defensive equipment before going deeper - with a Vampire Fang at my disposal I have my offense covered, but it would be nice to get a few more points in defense so I don't keep getting hit by floor 6-7 monsters on the descent.

Posted by: Nudibranch Jun 18 2019, 05:51 PM

The Demonist on 7 drops spell tomes if you need more SP. Though the best way to get more SP is to get your spell costs down in the first place. smile.gif

Posted by: Roland Jun 18 2019, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 17 2019, 03:38 PM) *
So I've been trying to level up some of my lower guild levels - mostly Scavenger for thieving ability, with some Paladin thrown in for A/D and fight skill - but that progress has been slowed by quests.

I think Scavenger is the right choice. You need better boxing ability if you are running deeper, and Charm of Opening is still pretty expensive at your current level. Plus improved backstab will contribute to your fighting ability. And the Crest of the Scavenger, with +3 dex and 6 charges of COO is useful - the dex bonus will help you win initiative, which can prevent a lot of damage.

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jun 17 2019, 03:38 PM) *
Plus I'm using this as an excuse to fill my confinement, and level other classes while searching for my questing quarry, as it were. Currently on the docket is a Morgul, a "very rare" giant from level 4 whom I've only ever found like 20 of on this install. I found one off-screen, but it got killed by its friends after I charmed it sad.gif .

I've been doing the same thing with my solo character. At the end of my run, if I have enough spell points left, I grab a monster or two for confinement. (I can't do this with my high-level Mage because his companions rip most monsters to shreds before I can charm them.) I need to update my shopping list!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 24 2019, 08:32 PM

We're up to 42 full parts now! Here's this week's video: https://youtu.be/2CWf1DyqLHk

I've been grinding up Scavenger, just passed 195 and minimum Scav cost for Charm of Opening. Now I'm looking to maybe level up Mage for the heal spell or Paladin for fighting ability, but the more I think about it the less important healing is. Sure, it's nice for emergencies, but at that point I should just be stocking healing items instead of wasting my valuable spell points on healing. At the very least I want to level up Paladin so I don't have to keep changing my equipment when I swap between it and Scavenger.

I visited level 11 today, and have been taking tours to the Giant King on 10. Just starting to find decent items - Studded Cuirbouli, Boots of Levitation, Static Sashes and the like. I'm not too scared of aging just yet, but the withering traps are adding up, so it would be nice to start building a collection of Dragon's Blood.

The most dangerous monsters I'm fighting are those highlighted in the Spoiler walkthrough - ninjas, death haws, silent eagles, and anything with a breath weapon. I really want to amp up my Sorcerer leveling to get minimum cost for Paralyzing Death because I've been in *just* enough situations where I have barely not enough points for a good PD when a pack of Mundragons show up. That said, I think the more annoying thing about Mundragons is that the only spells I have that reliably 1-shot a full group tend to be the spells that "take to long to cast when peaced," and Mundragons like to show up "peaced" more often than not. Unsure whether to blame my high charisma or dumb luck.

As for a second extra swing, that's around 500 for either Pally or Scavenger, so.... yeah that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Posted by: BLauritson Jun 24 2019, 10:10 PM

On the peaced front, is it possible with these more powerful spells to tap the F key then quickly cast them from a buffer before the monsters act? Or does this still run the risk of them getting first initiative as soon as you initiate combat?

Posted by: Roland Jun 24 2019, 11:54 PM

The second extra swing comes at 484 for Paladin and 531 for Scavenger.

When I want to cast Soul Entrapment on a peaced monster group, I hit the Dazzle buffer and then immediately hit Soul Entrapment. The threat of Dazzle un-peaces them, and then Soul Entrapment overrides the original spell. I assume this trick will work with any spell that takes too long to cast when peaced.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Jun 25 2019, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (BLauritson @ Jun 24 2019, 04:10 PM) *
On the peaced front, is it possible with these more powerful spells to tap the F key then quickly cast them from a buffer before the monsters act? Or does this still run the risk of them getting first initiative as soon as you initiate combat?


My issue with pressing the F key to start a fight is that my character swings *immediately.* I'm not sure if this is because of the speed of my computer or what, but my character always starts swinging before I have a chance to throw down a spell.


QUOTE (Roland @ Jun 24 2019, 05:54 PM) *
The second extra swing comes at 484 for Paladin and 531 for Scavenger.

Basically 500 then.

QUOTE (Roland @ Jun 24 2019, 05:54 PM) *
When I want to cast Soul Entrapment on a peaced monster group, I hit the Dazzle buffer and then immediately hit Soul Entrapment. The threat of Dazzle un-peaces them, and then Soul Entrapment overrides the original spell. I assume this trick will work with any spell that takes too long to cast when peaced.


I could try buffer-switching, but that's gonna be a real quick input trick that I'm not gonna always get. If I fail, I waste some SP, but if I succeed I don't take a full combat round of damage. Pros and cons need to be weighed I suppose.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 2 2019, 12:51 AM

Another Monday, another video, though a bit later in the day than usual. https://youtu.be/aG_dDYH1lpM

I'm hitting the point where I honestly don't know what I should be leveling up just because everything has some benefit to it. Scavenger gives thief ability and some combat stuff, Paladin gives more combat stuff, Sorcerer helps with PD cost and spell damage overall, and Mage helps reduce SE cost (by a lot), healing cost, and has crest strong enough to catch even deeper-dwelling monsters (of which my confinement is looking a bit sparse). Mage also is the only other class I plan on leveling which has not reached the level for my best items, including Studded Cuirboli.

Losing the vampire fang to a freaking slime trap sucks (normally they don't destroy anything even when they trigger) but at least I had replacements (and the gold to afford it). I'm glad I have backups for most of my items, actually. Even if I have to downgrade a bit sometimes I still have basically the same thing, plus or minus some A/D.

Also what's with the quests? Sometimes I get on runs of like 6 in a row and they're almost all terrible. I haven't had to resign one yet, but I got close to giving up on the Morgul. What's the worst thing you've ever gotten quested for? (Not including T'Mana's which don't exist without patching).

Posted by: Roland Jul 3 2019, 07:36 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 1 2019, 08:51 PM) *
Also what's with the quests? Sometimes I get on runs of like 6 in a row and they're almost all terrible. I haven't had to resign one yet, but I got close to giving up on the Morgul. What's the worst thing you've ever gotten quested for? (Not including T'Mana's which don't exist without patching).

Since you first posted about Morguls, I've seen a number of them - usually underneath higher-level Giants.

I recall an especially annoying Violet Fungus quest. I knew exactly where to look for them, but they just weren't showing up.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 8 2019, 08:34 PM

Video #44 is up! https://youtu.be/L4WaXcBbVYc

Floor 12 really didn't seem too much worse than floor 11. Then again I probably got lucky with the monsters I ran into. Having static sashes and a well-charged ring of Frost is really helpful for these deeper dives, as I will inevitably run out of SP (especially if I keep hitting teleporters).

I also didn't know that I didn't have any Skeletons in my closet - erm, confinement? Better get on that search.gif

Mage crest is really coming in handy for grabbing some companions to take hits and deal some extra damage as I go deeper, but with how quickly everything dies I don't know if it would really be worth me trying to buy anything or use an OoLD charge. This isn't like back in floor 4 where I could just tame a giant slug and have it survive everything except the flame dragon with hp to spare - now EVERYTHING has some sort of breath weapon, on-hit elemental damage, spell, or other gimmick to kill me, and the things that don't still hit hard. Keeping companions around is hard work, but it's still looking like it might be really beneficial. Maybe once I bottom out with Paralyzing Death's cost I'll switch back to Mage just to save SP on Entrapment. think.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 11 2019, 01:44 PM

So I've read through here some before but never actually watched a video until today, haha. I wanted to see how you play compared to mine, since I know from talking on here that I tend to favor melee guilds and combat more than others, generally, and I use a lot of spell points on heals, and only use spells on nastier groups that'll cost me more to heal after than nuke down (or dangerous groups like a bunch of drainers or stuff that stones, etc).

Like you were using leprosy on the water stuff on dungeon level 6, where I would melee all of that except for 3-4 alligator groups I'd acid spray (leprosy won't reliably kill them for me yet), and melee the 4th group or other survivors. I'm 140ish warrior and scav, but only 70-80 mage and sorcerer, so I have about the same defense you do but without as nice of gear, and stronger combat ability, but much less effective damage spells that cost a ton more.

It looks like we move through the dungeon at about the same speed, though I'm not as deep yet. Earlier today I made just shy of 10 levels (500k exp about) in an hour while doing 2 easyish quests fighting on dungeon levels 5-7, compared to you earning about 80-90k in 10 minutes on floors 6-10.

Maybe I'll get around to making a video to throw up just for the heck of it, though I actually only have played Mordor on my ancient laptop (I think I got it from my parents before going to college, so it is 17ish years old!) that has a bad network card, so I'd have to get Mordor on my newer PC to actually record anything ... laugh.gif.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 11 2019, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 11 2019, 07:44 AM) *
Like you were using leprosy on the water stuff on dungeon level 6, where I would melee all of that except for 3-4 alligator groups I'd acid spray (leprosy won't reliably kill them for me yet), and melee the 4th group or other survivors. I'm 140ish warrior and scav, but only 70-80 mage and sorcerer, so I have about the same defense you do but without as nice of gear, and stronger combat ability, but much less effective damage spells that cost a ton more.

It looks like we move through the dungeon at about the same speed, though I'm not as deep yet. Earlier today I made just shy of 10 levels (500k exp about) in an hour while doing 2 easyish quests fighting on dungeon levels 5-7, compared to you earning about 80-90k in 10 minutes on floors 6-10.


I'm probably not playing the most efficient way, but it works for me, so eh?
I also don't have access to Warrior and haven't leveled a ton in Nomad so that's probably why your A/D is going to be so much higher than mine. That said if you watched my most recent video I didn't have all my best gear (esp. my mystic shield) because I was catching up with my Mage guild. Also I'm size Small as an elf so I take 10% more and deal 10% less melee damage to basically everything compared to a size Normal human.

I guess I'm probably earning raw exp faster but levels a lot slower, since as a Human you have the smallest amount of exp per level by a good amount. You played an Osiri before, who has the second most exp per level (and osiri/healer is the highest combined exp requirement for a race/class combo), so you're probably really happy about the faster leveling laugh.gif

I also only play Mordor when I'm either recording or watching another video so my attention is only half on the game most of the time, and I only really play a few hours a week at most. The week where I got 100+ levels of Scavenger in June was a week where I played more Mordor than I had in a long time.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 11 2019, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 11 2019, 10:45 AM) *
I'm probably not playing the most efficient way, but it works for me, so eh?
I also don't have access to Warrior and haven't leveled a ton in Nomad so that's probably why your A/D is going to be so much higher than mine. That said if you watched my most recent video I didn't have all my best gear (esp. my mystic shield) because I was catching up with my Mage guild. Also I'm size Small as an elf so I take 10% more and deal 10% less melee damage to basically everything compared to a size Normal human.

I guess I'm probably earning raw exp faster but levels a lot slower, since as a Human you have the smallest amount of exp per level by a good amount. You played an Osiri before, who has the second most exp per level (and osiri/healer is the highest combined exp requirement for a race/class combo), so you're probably really happy about the faster leveling laugh.gif

I also only play Mordor when I'm either recording or watching another video so my attention is only half on the game most of the time, and I only really play a few hours a week at most. The week where I got 100+ levels of Scavenger in June was a week where I played more Mordor than I had in a long time.



For sure. I wasn't judging good or bad, just having fun seeing the differences in how people can play. I learned from a few minutes of your video that you can type numbers into the shop to sell items! laugh.gif. I always click and drag!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 11 2019, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 11 2019, 11:53 AM) *
For sure. I wasn't judging good or bad, just having fun seeing the differences in how people can play. I learned from a few minutes of your video that you can type numbers into the shop to sell items! laugh.gif. I always click and drag!


Oh definitely. I used to click-drag too until sometime into this video series. I've been discovering a lot of little Mordor life hacks that have made life a lot easier. Hmm, maybe that'd be a good thing to make another Tips & Tricks video on... think.gif

You can also hit Alt + (key) to instantly performed the action associated with the underlined letter. For instance, Alt+S on a shop screen will sell the item in question.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 15 2019, 08:23 PM

Video part #45 is here: https://youtu.be/43hgnpBmzuI

I'm hitting an annoying wall with leveling... Well, not a "wall" per-se, but I haven't been able to pin consecutive runs as Sorcerer in quite some time, and it's actually getting to the point where I need to take one full run and might not even get enough exp to get a single level! This is what I get for having 160k required between levels. Ah well, at least I'm still lowering the casting cost of PD. Just 4 more points to minimum!

Is there a better place to level that I have access to with level 227 Sorcerer? The lake on 7 just doesn't feel like it's giving me enough exp for my SP anymore, though admittedly it still is a good 50k or so assuming I get a reasonable number of 4-group Crocodile spawns. That said, the lake on 11 doesn't really have many groups I'd consider high-exp (even though they still die to acid spray), and it also has a decent chance of Piranhas, who are worth basically nothing with their 1hp despite coming in swarms of 20+.

Posted by: Roland Jul 15 2019, 10:01 PM

I spent a lot more time on 10 and 12 than I did on 11. The chute from 7 makes for easy to access to 10, and the many 2x2 rooms make for good encounter density (as opposed to 9, with its large rooms making for fewer encounter areas).

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 16 2019, 01:48 PM

Iirc once I was on 11 with my osirri (and I have the same intentions for my human once he has a few more levels), I loved it. Pirahnas are annoying, so I just skip them. But otherwise I'd clear the lake and then fight my way through the white dragon, giant king, vampire on 9, and thr lake on 7 while waiting on 11 respawn. Probably visiting twisted elf and maybe goblin shaman&cockatrices too.

Hammerheads are a lot of xp, and even though there aren't many big groups, the water monsters on 11 are nice and safe and a lot higher level and hits than 7 stuff. I prefer not wandering through rooms randomly to level because of concern about running into nastier stuff... Lava Giants, phantasmal mists, mundragons, spellcaster groups, mythicals, ninjas. You may not need to worry about then as much as I do since your sorc level is much higher, but these things tend to wipe out my companion and/or do and take a lot of damage for the exp compared to lake monsters.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 19 2019, 02:26 PM

I'm picking up a new path, though not one without danger. The quick route through 3, the stairs + teleporters from 4 to 6, then up to 7 and chute to 10, and then straight down to 11 and a single Eth Portal to hit up the White Dragon. I'm not *too* old right now (floating around 28), but the sooner I can build up a stash of Dragon's Blood the better. Still haven't gotten anything, but I've only really completed the trip a couple of times because it's a bit dangerous.

I say dangerous because sometimes I forget that Levitate is only 95% effective and try to walk over the chute to floor 12. I have since fallen down to 12 at least once, barely getting back with 50hp after using up 20 charges of Crystal of Healing and a handful of Dust of Healing. I've also been spamming a bit of the Static Sash, and my Ring of Frost has been recharged more times in the last few trips than I care to admit. I'm getting plenty of gold, so that's not an issue, but I'm almost out of Static Sash uses, so hopefully I find another one soon!

Currently Witches are my favorite companions to grab on the go, as they both fight well in melee and have some pretty good spell potential with the Elemental spells. They don't like sticking around for very long, but they usually die before then.

My current panic-button target (that isn't a lava giant or dragon) is Phantasmal Mist. I can kill them *mostly* reliably with Acid Spray from my around-240 Sorcerer, but if I ever spot any when I'm low on spell points they put up a mean fight. Breath attacks PLUS the paralyze/drain combo? diablo.gif One ended up hitting me through my paralysis resistance and I lost like 300hp before I got un-stunned.

Also sick of getting horrible rolls on surprise FATE traps. Been reduced to double-digit HP with only a handful of SP twice now. Doesn't make for a fun return trip - hence the reason why the Ring of Frost and Static Sashes are running dry.

Minimum Cost PD can't come soon enough. I need the extra Paladin A/D and I need it bad.
Does anyone know what level Sorcerer PD hits minimum? (should be 10SP). I don't have the tools to calculate that myself, because the formula for spell cost relies on knowing some modifier numbers that I can't access without an editor file.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 19 2019, 02:59 PM

Sounds like we're exploring about the same stuff now. Phantasmal mists are a huge pain, for sure. I'm surprised you had trouble with their paralysis though. I don't know if I've ever been paralyzed more than maybe 1 round when I have resist up. Lava giants and greymahs are my other big annoyances, though at least electrocute doesn't trigger unless they hit/cast.

What consumables do you tend to carry? I'm always paranoid a big stack of a consumable will get stolen so I try not to carry much.

The spell cost tool sticky in this forum section has an updated link in the newest posts that you can download. It lets you calculate costs, damage, and more by level, besides just being able to show minimum cost level.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 19 2019, 03:25 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 19 2019, 08:59 AM) *
Sounds like we're exploring about the same stuff now. Phantasmal mists are a huge pain, for sure. I'm surprised you had trouble with their paralysis though. I don't know if I've ever been paralyzed more than maybe 1 round when I have resist up. Lava giants and greymahs are my other big annoyances, though at least electrocute doesn't trigger unless they hit/cast.

What consumables do you tend to carry? I'm always paranoid a big stack of a consumable will get stolen so I try not to carry much.


I was surprised too. Most paralysis goes away as soon as it starts thanks to 95% resistance, but I just got REALLY unlucky that time.

Right now I'm carrying a healing item (a 10-ish use Dust of Healing right now), a Rod of Passage with a few charges (in case I get teleported into a walled-in section like the Demonist lair on floor 7 or the bottom-right corner of floor 10), and a Sphere of Entrapment for charms. I've combined up some bigger healing items over time but after having several stolen from mid-level monsters I haven't brought them with me in awhile. That said, I haven't really had many issues with items getting stolen since getting around 200 Scav levels, but it's always something to be careful of.

At first I was more worried about the 40 inventory limit on a single character, but unless I get buried in items from lower levels that doesn't seem to be much of a factor. I only ever hit that limit when I was questing for a rare mob in an easier part of the dungeon, like the Morgul quest on floor 4.

Edit: Oh nice, I didn't know there was a working download link, since most of the links here are to dead sites from 10 years ago angry.gif

Posted by: Roland Jul 19 2019, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 19 2019, 10:26 AM) *
Does anyone know what level Sorcerer PD hits minimum? (should be 10SP). I don't have the tools to calculate that myself, because the formula for spell cost relies on knowing some modifier numbers that I can't access without an editor file.

I use Seth's Spell Cost Tool, which you'll find in the downloads section. In addition to computing spell costs, it gives you the attack/defense sequences (plus extra swings) for all guilds. I use it a lot.

Paralyzing Death reaches minimum cost (10 sp) at guild level 311. Here are the levels for the other high-level Sorc spells:

Hail Storm 223
Sphere of Flames 259
Electric Field 313
Arctic Storm 351
Burning Air 369
Flesh to Stone 405

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 19 2019, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 19 2019, 12:11 PM) *
I use Seth's Spell Cost Tool, which you'll find in the downloads section. In addition to computing spell costs, it gives you the attack/defense sequences (plus extra swings) for all guilds. I use it a lot.

Paralyzing Death reaches minimum cost (10 sp) at guild level 311. Here are the levels for the other high-level Sorc spells:

Hail Storm 223
Sphere of Flames 259
Electric Field 313
Arctic Storm 351
Burning Air 369
Flesh to Stone 405



3... 31..... 311? blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif

...

I'm just gonna level Paladin for a bit and contemplate my life choices...

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 19 2019, 08:26 PM

You don't want to know about precognitive death and soul entrapment... laugh.gif

Edit - well I kinda take that back. Soul entrapment is lower than I thought it was, "only" 333. But precog, yeah, is nearly 400. It's word of death that gets really silly, especially for wizards. I keep telling myself that I will spend time as wizard later so I can cast WOD for the big guy. But I guess odds are in my favor of finding a cap of death (or three) long before I get around to taking wizard to 250+ for WOD to be usable in emergencies.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 22 2019, 07:59 PM

Episode 46 is here: https://youtu.be/WJKJHHxNznw

Some highlights in this week's Mordor Monday episode include:
- Getting my 3rd death of the character because Will-o-Wisps apparently electrocute on spell cast, and not just on melee attack.
- Losing my only Gloves of Power to a Slime trap on 12, and only getting Boots of Levitation in return.
- Finding the Mother of Serpents without looking directly at a map.
- Getting teleporter-chained onto floor 13 and finding my way back safely without teleport.

So I tried switching to an Avenger for my Paladin leveling, but the extra .6 multiplier didn't seem to help nearly as much as I had expected. Probably because I'm an elf with mediocre strength and Small size. It helped guarantee that I kill weaker monsters that I can still low-roll on with the vampire fang (like Pandruns or Kyu's weaker than Hota), but for everything else I still found a way to fail to kill them somewhat regularly, and being back down to 4 swings rather than 5 was more annoying than anything else, as the weaker monsters that I want to melee down the damage doesn't really matter for but the swings do. Plus it leaves me 15 defense lower, that Fang + Shield of Def, which I REALLY notice.

I brought Sorcerer to 245 for 13-cost Par-D, but I still want 311 eventually, and if I'm hitting 311 for Par-D I might as well go all the way to 313 for EF. It's only a few spell points, but every point REALLY matters, especially when I might be casting it several times per dungeon trip. Plus the extra damage is much appreciated as well, especially on Acid Spray, which is starting to fail to kill things intermittently because of low rolls.

For the foreseeable future I'm going to be working my way up the Paladin ranks. I get +3/+3 every 6 levels for a bit longer, then it moves to every 7, then finally a long stretch of being every 8 levels until 430, with a second swing at 489. Not sure if I'm up for 59 extra levels in Paladin (especially THAT deep in) just for an extra swing, but it wouldn't be totally bad. I think that's where my leveling of Pally will end, though, if I even make it there.

Honestly, Fischsemmel's running of a Good Human has kept me on my toes, and given me a bigger desire to keep pushing deeper. I'm pretty sure he'll push past me and end up killing Asmo before I even get to 15, but hey, it's good to push each other to keep going, right? wink.gif


Edit: I'm also currently trying to get together some assistance for a small project that definitely relates to this character... Hopefully I have more info in the near future!

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 22 2019, 11:01 PM

Well the third death is a bummer, but the rest of it sounds nice!

It's SUPER long-term planning, but since scavenger gets a 2nd extra swing and those levels pay off for thieving ability too, it might be better to abandon paladin at the a/d cap and get the extra attack ftok scav (if ever). I assume the crit and melee ability from those paladin levels aren't worth the time unless you don't have anything else to work on.

While I'm moving faster in terms of the calendar than you are, it's probably just because I play a ton (until I move on tl another hobby for a few months)! I wonder how our ingame play times compare. I think I'm a bit over 80 hours now, iirc.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 22 2019, 11:16 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 22 2019, 05:01 PM) *
While I'm moving faster in terms of the calendar than you are, it's probably just because I play a ton (until I move on tl another hobby for a few months)! I wonder how our ingame play times compare. I think I'm a bit over 80 hours now, iirc.


Hehheh, heh, heh (around 150 hours now) blink.gif

Granted, I started this character almost 5 years ago. I used to be a lot less efficient in grinding. I also didn't really have the best direction with the character until recently. And sometimes I just leave the window open while I do other things and then forget about it.

But mark my words I WILL finish this game on Gil'Thrialle! Even if it gets to the point where I can't play outside of my recording sessions I will still finish the game. Every monster killed is my goal, but at least getting Asmo and the Demon Prince would be lovely. I'm actually moving through these deeper dungeon floors MUCH faster than I expected. The initial grind to survive down to, like floors 5-7 reliably is so much of a slog that it feels a lot more intimidating than it is, but it feels like the difficulty steps between floors aren't *that* much bigger. I have the tools to survive now, and the raw stats of monsters are less intimidating. It's mostly resistances and offensive abilities (like breath attacks or electrocution) that I need to worry about now.

I'm fully expecting to be dead wrong when stepping onto 15 for the first time, at which point I may instantly die, but it looks like the worst of the difficulty spikes is behind me.


Edit: How much total EXP do you have in Sorcerer? I'm just passing 21 million at level 246 sorc, and I believe at level 200 I was working with between 16M and 17M total exp. I want to see just how much the Human experience rate factors into the endgame grind.
Scavenger at level 196 has like 8M exp in it, for a different reference point. Across all my guilds I wouldn't be surprised to see if I had surpassed 50M total exp, but sadly the game doesn't really tell me that information.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 23 2019, 11:22 AM

My 203 scavenger is at 8.1 million exp.

And with 30 nomad, 218 warrior, 9 seeker, 203 scavenger, 177 mage, 200 sorcerer, I'm at a total of 37.6m exp.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 23 2019, 06:04 PM

Not bad, not bad.
I"m approaching 200 Paladin. My goodness it feels good to level fighter-type classes. The lake on 7 is still giving almost enough exp to actually level up, and a quick dip down through 8-10 is usually enough to finish the level, and sometimes I even pin before running out of SP! The downside to fighting classes is their higher Quest rate (which I suppose is meant to "balance out" their faster exp gain), but so far I haven't been quested for anything I didn't either run into regularly or have waiting for me in my Confinement.

A near-heart-attack inducing moment happened as I was returning from the dungeon after a trip. I decided to open a floor 7 Blackout chest despite having 0SP left, and lo and behold it wiped my resistances. That's not too bad, I figured, with my route not taking me through any Stone monsters and my fighting ability being proficient enough to overcome most monsters without issue. Plus I could always just run from most encounters. I had full Hits, what did I have to worry about?

Well, the very next step on the path (it was the land route just above the floor 7 lake) I ran into Kei Shumas. I missed my first attack, they hit, and they paralyze me. And I stay paralyzed. For something like 50 rounds of combat. I drop from 747 to around 300 hp by the time I *thankfully* break free.

So yeah. Note to self, never forget par res again. I'm seriously debating that Dalyn's Tear right about now, though I still hate the idea of losing dis/poi res, especially when some monsters are casting Leprosy. Though I suppose it's a lot worse to get caught without sto/par res than it is to get caught without dis/poi, and I can just carry around a Potion of Curing to make up for the unicorn horn charges. Plus it's only 3 defense difference - surely that's insignificant, right?

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 23 2019, 07:21 PM

You can actually run into any monster type (that isn't totally exclusive to it's lair like aboleth or butcher) in rooms they don't spawn in normally.

You've surely seen kyu groups in dry rooms ocassionally right? While very rare, you could find Medusa or mostrums or whatever in an unexpected place!

I always return to town with a reserve of sp, first so accidentally walking into an extinguisher or something doesn't stop me from rebuffing, second so I can hit a panic button on a nasty monster group, and third to heal before taking the steps, all without (probably) needing consumables.


Oh, when you were paralyzed, did you notice if it dropped your defense significantly? I never noticed before this character, but I believe I've been losing like 70+ defense while paralyzed.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 23 2019, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 23 2019, 01:21 PM) *
Oh, when you were paralyzed, did you notice if it dropped your defense significantly? I never noticed before this character, but I believe I've been losing like 70+ defense while paralyzed.


I didn't think to stop and look at my character stats page, to be honest. I was too busy spamming the arrow keys and hoping that I would be able to run backwards once my character was freed before I got paralyzed again.

Posted by: Roland Jul 23 2019, 09:34 PM

A few days ago my Morloch's Lamurian Warrior companion got stoned. A few minutes later he hit the Vampire lair. Despite having natural 95% resistance to paralysis, he was paralyzed by the Vampire. By the time it wore off, he was down to 20 hits! That was a narrow escape. That's the main reason to keep a companion around.

Not long after that, he blew four blackout traps in a single run. I ended that run early.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 23 2019, 10:25 PM

Did I say that the game didn't let you see Total EXP easily? Well I was dead wrong on that. As it turns out, it's right there under the Char tab.

At the time of this writing i'm at 48.5 Million exp. My entire guild stack looks like this:

Nomad (73)
Paladin (183)
Seeker (never joined)
Scavenger (196)
Mage (143)
Sorcerer (246)
Wizard (77)

... and that's it! Yep, Gil'thrialle has leveled in every guild available to her except for Seeker, and honestly I don't see too much purpose in that. The extra perception would help with mapping new areas and finding myself after teleporter/chute/rotator, but beyond that I don't find it that important, and any move spells I need I can still get at the same rate from Wizard.

I have 2 billion gold in bank, so my most limiting factor is actual existence of items.
My total A/D as Paladin right now is 281/339, and I'm increasing that over time as well.

I think it's really cool how the game lets you see and keep track of all of these minor stats like this.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 24 2019, 09:15 PM

You might want to consider joining seeker even if you never go above level 1. I have more perception from 9 seeker than 200+ my other guilds.

Are you planning to actually level wizard up to be able to use word of death when needed? Or just some for travel spells? I can't remember if my osirri found a cap of death before I wanted to fight the big guy or not. I'm really not keen on 300 wizard levels, even as a human! laugh.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 24 2019, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 24 2019, 03:15 PM) *
You might want to consider joining seeker even if you never go above level 1. I have more perception from 9 seeker than 200+ my other guilds.

Are you planning to actually level wizard up to be able to use word of death when needed? Or just some for travel spells? I can't remember if my osirri found a cap of death before I wanted to fight the big guy or not. I'm really not keen on 300 wizard levels, even as a human! laugh.gif



The way that stats work, if I run Seeker at all then it's going to be the only thing I'm getting Perception from. Unless I've been misinformed. Then again, if the perception really IS that high, then I might be wise to get a few levels in it.
That said, most of Perception as a stat is just reducing the annoyance of the dungeon and the tedium of pressing back and forward on the arrow keys. It's nice to have for mapping purposes (and I suppose not getting lost on rotators) but not at all necessary.

I considered leveling Wizard, but it's a miserable journey and I REALLY don't want to have to level a THIRD spellcasting class. It's bad enough that I still have about 30 levels of Mage left before minimum cost heals. Unless I find myself in a position where I have absolutely no other choice beyond casting WoD myself, then I'll consider it, but I feel that if I had to dig myself into 300+ more Wizard levels I'd probably uninstall first.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 25 2019, 12:32 AM

Makes sense.

I'm not positive how perception works, I know is my perception stat on the character tab comes from seeker 9 and not from warrior 238 or whatever.

Seeker totally isn't necessary, but then again, 50 or even 100 levels takes very little time relatively speaking, and seems, ime, to aid a lot with detecting pits/teleports/extinguishers or just finding yourself after a teleport trap.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 02:22 PM

It's interesting how many different routes I can run right now. I'm getting into a habit of taking the 7-10 chute as a shortcut to 12 to kill Mom, then working my way back to town. Then second run happens where I side-track through 11 to hit the white dragons. Then in my 3rd run I go my old route, killing the floor 9 vampire and floor 10 GK. And by the time I finish that third run, the floor 12 route is usually refreshed and I can hunt down Mom again.

In less happy news, I've burned through yet another Ring of Frost thanks to a surprise Slime trap. I think that's my 3rd one this character? Oh well, it was starting to cap out on usefulness anyway. I swapped it out for a Ring of Entrapment (which I had 1 Good and 5 Neutral in store, somehow), which should be a much more effective spell in general.

I found a Sword of Slaying, which (upon closer examination) just looks like a worse Vampire Fang with Crit instead of Backstab, limited only to fighting classes, one less swing, and 6 points moved from attack to defense.
I also found my first Lamurian Shock Lance (courtesy of Mom), which I sold to the shop, but for some reason isn't being stocked? It only had 20 uses on it, so maybe the shop has a higher minimum uses required to stock? Or maybe the shock lance can't be stocked, like the Medusa Head? Either way, I'm a bit sad that I sold it now. Not that it would be a *great* weapon, but it might be a decent way to bring down Mom without spending 30 SP on EF.

I'm about to ACTUALLY hit 200 paladin now, with almost 10M exp in the class. I'm still under 100k required per level, though, so it's going about twice as quickly as a Sorcerer level.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 26 2019, 02:35 PM

Omg. So many rings of entrapment!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 03:42 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 26 2019, 08:35 AM) *
Omg. So many rings of entrapment!


Yeah, somehow they've been quite common. Still no Elven Rings, and I lost a Ring of Death, but Ring of Entrapment (n) has been a pretty common drop from the lake on 7, somehow. I also have 1-2 Rings of Teleportation and a couple Rings of Disruption, though that is dwarfed by the sheer number of *totally* useful rings of Invisibility and Levitation.

Posted by: Roland Jul 26 2019, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 26 2019, 10:22 AM) *
I also found my first Lamurian Shock Lance (courtesy of Mom), which I sold to the shop, but for some reason isn't being stocked? It only had 20 uses on it, so maybe the shop has a higher minimum uses required to stock? Or maybe the shock lance can't be stocked, like the Medusa Head? Either way, I'm a bit sad that I sold it now. Not that it would be a *great* weapon, but it might be a decent way to bring down Mom without spending 30 SP on EF.

The standard number of charges on the Lamurian Shock Lance is 30. So if you sell the store one with fewer charges it will not be stocked.

Damage from a Lamurian Shock Lance depends on the user's level. At the minimum use level it will do 156-313. It tops out at 373-747.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 26 2019, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 26 2019, 11:42 AM) *
Yeah, somehow they've been quite common. Still no Elven Rings, and I lost a Ring of Death, but Ring of Entrapment (n) has been a pretty common drop from the lake on 7, somehow. I also have 1-2 Rings of Teleportation and a couple Rings of Disruption, though that is dwarfed by the sheer number of *totally* useful rings of Invisibility and Levitation.


Yeah, I have a bunch of the useless ones too. I think 3-4 of each Frost and flame, 1 elven, 2 entrapment. Still ca t believe my osirri never found either of those. If he had found an RoE, I might not ever have wanted to try a mage!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 10:40 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 26 2019, 02:45 PM) *
Yeah, I have a bunch of the useless ones too. I think 3-4 of each Frost and flame, 1 elven, 2 entrapment. Still ca t believe my osirri never found either of those. If he had found an RoE, I might not ever have wanted to try a mage!


Wait, rings of flame exist? blink.gif
Eh, not that they're that much better than Ring of Frost. Hits less hard and on a more common resistance, but also can be cast on Peaced enemies, so that's a plus.

I didn't know elven rings even existed before you found yours. Entrapment is good, level 90 is pretty solid for most Soul Entrapment targets until pretty deep. Disruption is decent but pretty specific on what you'd actually want to cast Draining Touch on. Teleportation is perhaps the most widely useful particularly for deep dungeon runs, at the very least as an emergency "get me out of here" button, but all things considered it's more a utility item than a combat tool (even though teleport can be used in combat like a mid-tier Kill spell).

Protection is just a ring with no spell. Venom adds poison resistance but gets out-classed by the Unicorn Horn. Invisibility and Levitation would have been cool had they passively granted the ability, but because they just granted spell charges they really only save like 2-3 spell points per trip with them (assuming they don't have another item that grants the spell anyway).

So yeah, Flame, Frost and Entrapment are probably my top picks for rings, with Teleportation getting a special mention for people interested in skipping around the dungeon.

Posted by: Roland Jul 27 2019, 02:02 AM

My Morloch doesn't have much of a choice regarding rings. He can't cast Soul Entrapment unless he's wearing Ring of Splendour. Last night he got drained for a point of cha and couldn't cast it!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 30 2019, 06:04 PM

No Mordor Monday video this week, I"m totally lost in Three Houses and also had several meetings to go to in regards to college stuff.

Yeah, Friday was the last time I played Mordor. I'll probably get right back into it once I finish my Fire Emblem binge, but for now the run is on hold for about a week or two. I have been thinking about the best way to approach the dungeon, though. Currently I'm not really doing much creative exploring, since I use up my spell points and/or pin before I can do much more than hit some of the hot-spots and climb my way out. Once I switch back over to Sorcerer, though, I'll have more potential experience gain to work with, meaning more exploration can happen.

I'm currently in the height of Paladin grinding, though. I just passed the point where I get an A/D increase every 6 levels, so now I get one every 7. That's still not that bad of a rate, and I've actually noticed the extra attack power in more consistently killing several monsters I used to only have iffy chances of 1-shotting, notably Kyu Hotas. (yes my elf is that weak that I struggle to kill a Hota in melee with one shot with reliability).

I also stared a bit too long at Seth's info tool during a slow period at work, and noticed the pattern for A/D growth of Paladin is something to the effect of 3/3, 3/4, 3/3, 3/4, 3/4. So every A/D increase (for Paladin at least) gives 3 Attack and 3.6 Defense, if we consider a visible increase as only occurring at whole integer values.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 6 2019, 06:23 PM

So I very nearly recorded a Mordor video yesterday, but ended up getting distracted by other things. I *have* begun to get back into the grind, though, now that I've finished one of the routes of Three Houses and kind of want to savor that game a bit.

I'm losing fringe equipment to slime traps that I *really* shouldn't be opening, so at this point I'm going to make a note to actually pay attention to trap types and not open risky chests unless it's from a target priority monster like Mom. Just yesterday I got a Mithril Helmet and Gauntlets of Power eaten by slime traps, but luckily I had a second helmet and also just found Mithril Gauntlets, so a perfect chance to upgrade!

Speaking of upgrades, I just found a Staff of Helarno from Mom. At the same time, though, I really like the extra swing and super common backstabs from the Vampire Fang. Sure, it loses out on a couple of points of defense and a 0.1 modifier, making it worse vs deeper-dwelling monsters, but those things I'm mostly blasting with spells anyway, and I prefer being able to kill 5 small monsters per round instead of 4 (the efficiency-whore in me cringes whenever I leave one monster alive following a group and need to take an extra round to kill them off). It's a SUPER minor thing, and ultimately I'd agree I'm probably better off with an Avenger or Staff of Helarno, but I just love extra swings. Probably why I always tried rushing for Ninja when I was a kid playing this game, back before I knew anything about OLR or the like.

Still just bouncing around floor 12, but I feel like I could move down to floor 13 at any time. I'm 215 Paladin right now, which should give me enough base A/D to survive down there. Whenever I run into a T'Mana and its flock of Silent Eagles on floor 11/12 it takes more than a single hit of PD to down the flock, though, so I might want to grind up more Sorcerer levels when I start going deeper.

With how much I've been getting randomly drained by Shuman Munsae and the Vampire, I definitely am running low on tomes and potions. That said, I have a full store of 9/9/9 Aards, so I really shouldn't worry too much. What's more worrying is that I"m approaching age 30, so I would REALLY like to find some dragon's blood. It doesn't matter that much because I'm an Elf, but it still is always a back-of-my-mind worry that I'll start dying too deep for my rescuers to save me.

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 6 2019, 11:49 PM

Drains on 10+ definitely suck. All the precautions in the world don't stop them, just slow them down. You'll settle into the habit of never opening slimes eventually though, haha. I don't even open most withering or teleports either (since I haven't explored all of any floor below 8 yet!).

I have been unimpressed with my staff of helarno. Probably a good call ignoring it. I think the critical hit or backstab chance on is easily underrated on weps infavor of a/d or ratio. A crit or BS usually means you kill something even when a good normal hit wouldn't have. That's pretty clutch imo.

Posted by: Roland Aug 7 2019, 01:55 AM

Note that the quality of a weapon's crit or backstab ability depends on the level of the weapon. So a Vamp Fang's level-13 backstab bonus is better than an Avenger's level-7 crititcal hit bonus.

IIRC, critical hit does twice as much bonus damage as an otherwise equal backstab, but backstab kicks in more often. The bonus damage from crit and/or backstab is added to the normal damage - they're all "rolled" independently.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 7 2019, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Aug 6 2019, 07:55 PM) *
Note that the quality of a weapon's crit or backstab ability depends on the level of the weapon. So a Vamp Fang's level-13 backstab bonus is better than an Avenger's level-7 crititcal hit bonus.

IIRC, critical hit does twice as much bonus damage as an otherwise equal backstab, but backstab kicks in more often. The bonus damage from crit and/or backstab is added to the normal damage - they're all "rolled" independently.


If the sample info at the bottom of "Character attack formulas" in the Spoilers section is correct ( http://dejenol.com/index.php?title=Character_Attack_Formulas ) then it seems that innate backstab on weapons is roughly twice as much as innate crit, and since in the formula it is added after the subtraction for monster level, then innate backstab is always going to be quite often.

At a floor level 13, I'd expect roughly 1 in 10 attacks to be backstabs, not counting the bonus from Scavenger's guild (which at this depth my Scav 200 is mostly counteracted by monster stats). If that's a 10% chance for, let's just say an extra 50% damage (I can't find any solid info for just how much bonus damage a backstab/crit actually does), then that can make me kill a monster in 2 hits that I would otherwise take 3, or sometimes 1-shot a monster that's just out of 1-shot range. Naturally the base damage roll still matters (I've recently clocked my low damage rolls around 28, and lowest backstab I've done around 44), but a better chance to do some bonus damage is (in my mind) better than a smaller chance to do even MORE bonus damage.

And then there's the innate Crit and Backstab Glvl bonuses giving me Sever chance, which normally procs only on monsters I'd already kill with either-or but still makes a cool sound effect diablo.gif


Speaking of damage calculation, I feel like I deal less damage to some monsters than others. I know that Monster defense doesn't count when figuring out chance-to-hit (meaning there's only ever a 2.5% miss chance, though it definitely feels a lot more common for low level chars). However, does monster defense actually work to reduce damage taken? Apparently it's still taken into account in the "crit/BS avoidance" formula, unless it literally is counting the hidden "monster level" stat.

Posted by: Roland Aug 8 2019, 10:54 PM

I have the attack formulas programmed into an Excel file. I'll run average damage for my Dwarf Seeker/Thief/Sorcerer, Frar, under different scenarios and see what comes out.

Vampire Fang 135
Dagger of Swiftness 137
Sword of Slaying 135
Vorpal Blade 127
Lightning Blade 133

If we add a critical hit bonus to the Vorpal Blade, average damage rises to 132. If, instead, we add backstab, average damage only rises to 131.

Sticking with the Vorpal Blade, if we remove Frar's crit and stab bonuses, average damage falls to 114. With crit only, average damage is 122. With stab only, average damage is 120. This despite that fact that his backstab ability is 9 (from Thief) and his crit ability is only 3 (from Seeker). With a Warrior's crit bonus of 9, average damage would rise to 128.

Conclusion: Critical hit adds more damage, on average, than an otherwise equal backstab.

In the formula, I see two differences between the two. First, in the Damage Mod, crit adds +5, while stab adds +2. Second, the probability formula for crit ends with a multiplier of ln(10)=2.3, while the equivalent multiplier in the stab formula is ln(100)=4.6. So backstab will kick in roughly twice as often as critical hit, but critical hit will add more than twice the damage of backstab.


Some other useful facts:

On average, +16 attack translates to +1 damage.

The impact of strength on damage is not continuous. Every third point of strength gives a large jump in damgage. The jumps come at strengths of 25, 28, 31, 34, 37, 40, etc. (I take advantage of this knowledge to choose gloves/gauntlets and bracers to trade off strength and dexterity when I have excess strength.)

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 9 2019, 12:10 AM

All very useful information! Thanks Roland ok.gif

So the flat damage ratio, all else being equal, means the average damage of a crit weapon is superior to an equivalently-leveled backstab weapon, all else being equal. That said, on an individual monster basis, one may argue that situationally Backstab may be more useful, because it procs more often despite adding less damage, so in instances where you only need a small damage boost to kill it's preferable to get backstab, but for overall damage dealt (if you're going to be slugging it out in melee for several rounds, for instance) then crit is superior, again all else being equal.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 12 2019, 09:00 PM

Another Monday, another video! https://youtu.be/MRxLSgP2j-0

So apparently yesterday was the 5th anniversary of my solo elf, Gil'Thrialle! That's right, it's her 5th birthday!
Okay, so there were like 2 years in there where I didn't touch Mordor at all, and I definitely started the grind REALLY slow (only playing on video for a long time, until I realized that was just unreasonable), but it's crazy to think that this character has been around for over a fifth of my life. Like, WHAT?
Still, to celebrate I commissioned a character portrait from one of my artist friends! I really like how it turned out, and she got quite a few of my requested details really solid! I don't have a URL for the image, so just watch the video if you want to see the art.

I'm exploring floor 13 decently well and not having too much trouble. Part of me wants to find a path onto 14, but I still have a LOT of 13 (and a decent amount of 12) left to explore, and I want to do that before I get too far ahead of myself.

I just found out also that apparently the upper stairs from 12 to 13 take you to a tiny area that has no connections to the rest of 13. I mean, I get that by this point the dungeon is meant to start becoming unpredictable, but I still just have to ask why this is even there at all. It's not even an interesting portion of 13, it's just a flat straightaway with a couple of doors on either side.

Still grinding up Paladin, I'm probably going to get decently high up in that before I switch over to Sorcerer. I've really been noticing the extra fighting skill paying strong dividends, and I've gone on tours as deep as 13 and only taken a few hundred hits worth of damage. That said, I'm still being HARD carried by my Sorcerer spells, so I'm definitely going to get that 313 at some point before I start exploring the deepest depths of Dejenol.

Posted by: Roland Aug 12 2019, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 12 2019, 05:00 PM) *
I just found out also that apparently the upper stairs from 12 to 13 take you to a tiny area that has no connections to the rest of 13. I mean, I get that by this point the dungeon is meant to start becoming unpredictable, but I still just have to ask why this is even there at all. It's not even an interesting portion of 13, it's just a flat straightaway with a couple of doors on either side.

Three of the rooms along the northern hallway of 13 can spawn Mythicals.

Posted by: Roland Aug 12 2019, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 12 2019, 05:00 PM) *
So apparently yesterday was the 5th anniversary of my solo elf, Gil'Thrialle! That's right, it's her 5th birthday!

Happy birthday!

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 12 2019, 05:00 PM) *
Still, to celebrate I commissioned a character portrait from one of my artist friends! I really like how it turned out, and she got quite a few of my requested details really solid! I don't have a URL for the image, so just watch the video if you want to see the art.

Nice avatar! Everyone has some idea what an Elf looks like. But Morloch, not so much. So a portrait of Aelric would require a lot more description.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 12 2019, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Aug 12 2019, 03:38 PM) *
Three of the rooms along the northern hallway of 13 can spawn Mythicals.


Oooooooohhhhhh

*makes note to add those rooms into regular rotation*

QUOTE (Roland @ Aug 12 2019, 03:47 PM) *
Nice avatar! Everyone has some idea what an Elf looks like. But Morloch, not so much. So a portrait of Aelric would require a lot more description.


Morloch is a term I've only ever heard 2 places - Mordor, and that old story I *think* was called "The Time Machine." One of the earliest time travel science fiction stories ever.

Personally, the fact that Mordor describes Morlochs as "Hulking masses of fur and muscle" doesn't exactly mesh well with the fact that they have a freaking 15 con cap for seemingly no reason. But then again, nothing about Morlochs makes that much sense, so :shrug:

Posted by: Roland Aug 12 2019, 10:41 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 12 2019, 05:55 PM) *
Morloch is a term I've only ever heard 2 places - Mordor, and that old story I *think* was called "The Time Machine." One of the earliest time travel science fiction stories ever.

Personally, the fact that Mordor describes Morlochs as "Hulking masses of fur and muscle" doesn't exactly mesh well with the fact that they have a freaking 15 con cap for seemingly no reason. But then again, nothing about Morlochs makes that much sense, so :shrug:

Yes, I think The Time Machine must be the original source of the name - though Wells spelled it "Morlock". But Mordor's description does not match that of Wells, who described them as having dull skin and red eyes, and which were apparently smaller and weaker than humans of our time.

In Avatar, from which Mordor's races and guilds were lifted, Morlochs were the only race with the "amphibious" ability, so I used to think of them as fish-like. Inspired by that ability, I once created a Morloch Villian named Aqualung, after the Jethro Tull song!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 13 2019, 07:30 PM

Huh. I'm gonna have to see if I can look into Avatar, then. From how you're describing it it sounds pretty interesting.

So I just found my first Lamurian Ring and Holy Sword! Too bad the Holy Sword is unusable by elves (freaking 21 base str requirement. Not sure why they were so afraid of SPECIFICALLY Elf paladins since any other race that can be a paladin can use it). Sure, the holy sword isn't a great weapon (1.6 damage, 3 swings) but the resists and minor heal charges would have been at least convenient if nothing else. I *do* already have drain res from my cloak, though, and that isn't looking to change anytime soon, especially now that I have a Silver Cloak.

Lamurian Ring has 9 defense, which isn't too bad. I personally prefer the spell charges on my Ring of Entrapment (or the convenience of Ring of Teleportation once I get comfortable enough to actually mess with teleport because right now that's the scariest thing in the game to me), but it wouldn't be a bad alternative option.

Still no dragon's blood, and I'm fast approaching age 32. As an elf I shouldn't be *that* bothered by this, but Mordor always makes the age thing feel like something of a doom clock - if you aren't at least conscious of it, you will eventually succumb to it.

I haven't visibly rolled below like around 40 in damage in quite some time. Might be because I hit 28 str from my Mithril Gauntlets, might be because I just passed 300 Atk (and 360 def) only a bit ago. I've also clocked a solid 100+ normal attack on a Hero, so my damage ceiling isn't looking too bad either. I've taken to just melee'ing down mobs that don't have scary spells, drain abilities, paralysis, breath weapons, electrocution, high crit chance, or come in large groups... Which basically just leaves things like Defenders, Heroes, Iron Bears, and thieves. Or lone witches, provided I don't have any companions, as my other resistances mean I'm only taking around 10 or so damage per spell cast, and most of the time they end up just flubbing a Flesh to Stone or something on me.
Genies worry me since they can still hit for 20-40 with WoD even through my natural elven magic resistance of 80%. It's starting to tempt me into casting full-on magic resistance on myself, just for that final 15% - which technically would be a 75% reduction from what I'm already taking... think.gif


A bit of a question regarding the Mother of Serpents - or rather, the room right in front of her. The laired monster maps say that that room is supposed to spawn Shadow Serpents, but in all the times I've visited it it NEVER spawns ANYTHING. Just that room. Is that normal? Does that happen to anyone else?

Posted by: Roland Aug 13 2019, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 13 2019, 03:30 PM) *
A bit of a question regarding the Mother of Serpents - or rather, the room right in front of her. The laired monster maps say that that room is supposed to spawn Shadow Serpents, but in all the times I've visited it it NEVER spawns ANYTHING. Just that room. Is that normal? Does that happen to anyone else?

Yes, that's one of several rooms that I always find empty. Another is at 1,6,9.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 20 2019, 12:58 AM

Happy Mordor Monday everyone! https://youtu.be/Y95rCnZh4ao

I've surpassed Sorcerer with Paladin (Finally), but am still grinding forward because I'm still getting a lot of enjoyment from the extra A/D from Paladin, and also the faster leveling is still addicting. I'm Pinning roughly half the time I go into the dungeon, and occasionally pin on my way back and end up having to fight my way back for no exp. I should probably get better at predicting my exp gain on the return so I'm not wasting all that time.

I may have lost my Mithril Gauntlets to a slime trap (thanks, Mom), but I'm starting to pick up some other good items. Bracers of Strength have made up for the str deficit in my gauntlets, and I'm even starting to stock up on some useful expendable spellcasting items to supplement my SP with. Still no Magenta sashes, but I have like 3 spare Static sashes now, so that's cool I suppose?

I took the time to map out the entire Graveyard as well as The Pit on 13. Still no good items from them (just some drain, slime traps and frustration), but now that my map is looking more fleshed out I feel more confident going down to explore. Who knows, I might actually run into a Pariah one of these days! (Still have never seen one in my life, but that's gotta change sometime, right?)

I found an Elven Lord, but he didn't have any shoes. Maybe next time, eh?

Posted by: Roland Aug 20 2019, 02:07 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 19 2019, 08:58 PM) *
I found an Elven Lord, but he didn't have any shoes. Maybe next time, eh?

Unfortunately, Elven Lords don't drop boots. Boots of the Elven Lords are quite rare - only two of my three high-level characters have pairs.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 20 2019, 08:23 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Aug 19 2019, 08:07 PM) *
Unfortunately, Elven Lords don't drop boots. Boots of the Elven Lords are quite rare - only two of my three high-level characters have pairs.


Eh, i figured. They're the best boots in the game, it makes sense they'd be pretty rare.

So I was realizing as I looked through the wiki, I have basically the second- or third-best equipment in the game for basically all slots. I'm finding cubes now which I am strong enough to use, and BOY are they good. I even found a Ring of Truth. If I wasn't constantly using my ring of entrapment's charges I'd swap it out for that in a heartbeat, but because I'm still able to charm most monsters with the ring alone I think I'm going to keep it on. That said, 9 extra defense isn't anything to laugh at.

I've been trawling the graveyard pretty regularly now, and in my last run I got really excited to find two potions - one from an Etholan Phantasm and one from a Shadow Demon. Sadly, both were Elven Wine. I now have 4 wine in the shop, and no dragon's blood to speak of.

Which is bad, since I just hit age 34. I bought the last Potions of Youth the shop had available, recovered with tomes of endurance (basically out of stock of Potions of Fitness), and am now age 31.

I also had another death yesterday. On that same trip that netted me the two potions, I got stoned by a Medusa coming up the stairs from floor 8 to 7. Not much I could do, since the map loading delay locked me into melee for a round. I had 95 stoning resist and a few hundred hits, but that didn't seem to matter - first stoning death of the character. I quickly went back and hit it with Paralyzing Death for revenge, but the damage was done - 400 days for rescue, and -1 con from stoning.

Aside from that, though, things have been going well. I feel confident enough to explore floors 12 and 13 with regularity, and I finally removed Leprosy from my buffer list - it was a good spell for a good long time, but it's just not efficient enough anymore, and the things I would hit with that I now am strong enough to melee down without needing multiple hits. I replaced it with Pillar of Fire, which is a nice complement to the Static Sash when hunting things like hammerhead sharks.

My buffers now look like:
1. Static Sash
2. Pillar of Fire
3. Acidic Spray
4. Paralyzing Death
5. Sphere of Harm
6. Crest of the Paladin
7. Unicorn Horn
8. Rod of Ultimate Power
9. Electric Field
10. Ring of Entrapment

6 and 7 are the hardest buffers to hit quickly, but my hands can do the shift-5 stretch without issue, and then the other hand can come up for 0 and 9.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 21 2019, 08:34 PM

Got a Medallion of Dragons. Trying to fit Charm of Dragons onto my buffer list has messed EVERYTHING up. Seriously. It's not even that good of a spell anymore - sure it's stronger than a purple sash so it works against mundragons, white dragons and ice dragons, but it doesn't last very long, and dragons are rare enough that I don't always run into them unless I'm going to their lairs. I'm leaving it on buffer 9 right now. I moved EF to 6 and the crest to 7, and just get into my inventory for cure poison when I get poisoned. I could just take the crest off of my buffer bar since cure poison is more time-sensitive than healing, but without the crest on my buffer list I often forget that I even have it :shrug:

I've started getting a little more confident with using displacement (thanks to the 50-use sphere I have), but I still don't use it unless I hit a bad teleport trap or specifically want to visit a lair before I go home. There's a certain level of nervousness when typing in those crucial coordinates - almost like defusing a bomb, knowing that one wrong move can be your doom.

I also got paralyzed for 3-4 rounds in combat with a Minion of Death, and aged about 5 years before I could move again. I even had full 95% paralysis resistance, but the game didn't seem to care. Few things are more frustrating than being paralyzed and unable to get away while you have to sit and watch in horror as your character gets aged closer and closer to death's door.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 26 2019, 10:36 PM

This is it! I've taken my first official steps onto floor 15! https://youtu.be/jSfbaSyKgQU

I feel like part of me was overly worried, but another part of me is DEFINITELY still panicking at the thought of fighting anything even remotely strong. It takes me several rounds to kill even Lamurians in melee, let alone Lamurian warriors and guards. My spells don't seem to be that effective anymore either. I'm feeling like I need either a gear upgrade to some heavy spellcasting equipment or to power grind Sorcerer if I'm to have any hope in blasting my way through floor 15 effectively.

So far I'm Paladin level 310, with an A/D of 343/422, hence my comfort in delving this deep.

In the meantime, I found a Dragon Turtle (I'm running the T'Mana mod that makes them appear). It almost completely annihilated me single-handedly. Definitely the scariest monster I've seen so far.

I also picked up my first Vorpal Blade. It's a little bit weaker than the Vampire Fang and doesn't have the extra backstab chance, so as a weapon for the depths of 14-15 it's definitely not great, but for everything before that I'm able to still fight about as effectively, and making 8 swings in a single round just feels so good. It's making me want to boot up my Ninja again and see if I can get her into a better spot...

Aside from that, still the same old song and dance. No dragon's blood yet and my age is approaching 40. No real equipment upgrades, not even Magenta sashes, but a handful of static ones so at least those won't run out anytime soon.

Oh yeah, and I had a Mother of Serpents offer to join me. I used an Orb of Life Domination just to get her back safely to town. I don't know if I'll ever bring her out of confinement - she's my trophy - but she'd at least be a half-decent companion.

Lamurian Guards are by FAR my favorite companion, though. They are durable, hit hard, and have incredibly strong electrocution on their attacks. The only downside is that their HP range is just on the edge of what I can reliably charm with the Ring of Entrapment. I might have to find a better source of Soul Entrapment if I want to keep grabbing guards as I go.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 2 2019, 03:41 PM

Might not be able to find time to squeeze in a video today, so I'll post my text update now and then if I get a video out I'll link that here after.

I FOUND MY FIRST DRAGON'S BLOOD! Too bad I've been aged a few times already so Gil'Thrialle is already in her 50's, but hey, it's something. I'm beginning to hate the graveyard, but at the same time I'm doing really well just with acid spray, electric field and paralyzing death. Liches are the worst, so I've been trying to just charm them instead of fight them - they can hit for upwards of 40 each and have stupid strong drain, plus their attacks hit through my 400+ defense surprisingly often. I still occasionally fail to kill Minions of Death on the first turn when they appear - because they are so infrequent I'm not always mentally prepared to throw an Electric Field, and my Acidic Spray doesn't usually 1-shot them, which has led to many attacks taking 3+ years off my life.

Gear-wise I'm starting to get the Spectral stuff. Spectral shields would be nice, but the 22 str req means I can never use them. Spectral chain is looking pretty good though with 27 defense, but I'm not exactly that keen on dropping my dex. I also am using a vorpal blade - while its damage is only decent, its 12 defense and +1 dex are quite helpful, and the massive swing boost helps save on SP.

I'm carrying around like 8 different non-equipment spellcasting items now whenever I go down into the dungeon. A cube of controlling, a cube of death, a cube of flames, a sphere of healing, a sphere of dislocation, an elixir of fate, and dust of opening. Most of them are emergency preparedness or panic-buttons, but now that I'm starting to hit 13 and 14 with regularity, I can never be too prepared, especially for when I hit a teleport trap and get stranded somewhere. I've been hitting the random warp teleporters quite a bit just to be able to get back home.

I also *finally* found my first Magenta Sash, from a pack of shadow dragons. At first I doubted what I could throw fire spells at, but then I realized the Daemon Lord resists all my other major blasting tools, so it's either Fire or Mind, and no other fire spellcasting items throw strong enough spells to really deal with him, so it's either Cube of Death or a magenta sash. I'm keeping that always on the ready for when I poke into the Slither room on 14, or if I ever delve into 15.

I'm over level 360 paladin now, and I took the time to do two important things:
1. I got 10 levels in Seeker, taking my perception from 44 to 59 (which really helps in mapping)
2. I brought my Mage to level 175 for 8-sp Heal

I also realized that, because of the way Mordor works, my heal spell cost is determined by the lowest-cost guild (mage in this case), but the power of it is determined by the spell level of the highest class that can learn the spell, in this case Paladin. So despite only having a spell level of around 88 in mage, I'm still able to get heals for over 100 hp. So that's nice.

I've been getting drained so much from the graveyard that I've actually started hitting up the Goblin Lord area again for Aards. I'd forgotten just how much gold the goblin lord gives - around 3M on average. Since I'm usually down in the dungeon long enough to allow floor 3 to respawn, I hit him on the way down, and then once again on the way back up. Still not getting a great stream of good-aligned Aards, but at least I'm going to have enough to sustain myself even if I have to start realigning.

I'm torn on what to do in regards to my endgame leveling. Until I get some better sorcerer equipment I'm considering just staying on Paladin for the foreseeable future. I at least want to cap out guild A/D at 430. I've really begun to notice the reduction in XP gain, but I can still get a full level (and sometimes a pin) in a single run when doing my graveyard tour and Pariah search. I definitely want to hit up Sorcerer until 313, but after that I feel like my paladin gear is overall a lot better than my sorcerer gear, even though I have to cast one or two extra resistance spells. 12 free minor heals at this point averages up to over 500 free hits, which is insane longevity, and the extra defense from paladin equipment is nothing to laugh at.

I've also started having dreams about fighting monsters that are hitting for hundreds of damage... maybe that means I've been playing a bit too much Mordor as of late...

Posted by: BLauritson Sep 2 2019, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 2 2019, 04:41 PM) *
I've also started having dreams about fighting monsters that are hitting for hundreds of damage... maybe that means I've been playing a bit too much Mordor as of late...


Or perhaps...not enough? sneaky.gif

Sounds like you're doing really well with this run, it's been entertaining to read about your progress to this point.

I've never ventured below level 8 so I've not been watching the videos as I don't want to spoil myself regarding the dungeon layout etc. but I do enjoy reading your accounts of how you're getting on at each stage of the way.

At some point I'll dredge up my party again and see how far I can get with them, but until then I look forward to reading your latest updates smile.gif (same sentiment applies to Roland and fischsemmel as well if they're reading this).

Posted by: Roland Sep 2 2019, 07:54 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 2 2019, 11:41 AM) *
I also realized that, because of the way Mordor works, my heal spell cost is determined by the lowest-cost guild (mage in this case), but the power of it is determined by the spell level of the highest class that can learn the spell, in this case Paladin. So despite only having a spell level of around 88 in mage, I'm still able to get heals for over 100 hp. So that's nice.

I think the power of healing spells is determined by the current guild, whether it can cast healing spells or not. So my Dwarf Warrior/Healer casts Restoration at his Warrior level (525) rather than his Healer level (325) when leveling in Warrior. When leveling in Nomad (225), his healing is a lot less powerful.

Posted by: Mordion Sep 5 2019, 02:11 AM

If you’re farming aards, don’t forget to check the cockatrice lair on 5 near the chute by the goblin shaman. The odds aren’t great, but it’s so close on your way down.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 5 2019, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 2 2019, 03:54 PM) *
Warrior level (525)


Wow! That's a lot of warrior levels.

Posted by: Roland Sep 5 2019, 08:21 PM

My other two characters are level 525 in Paladin and Seeker, respectively.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 6 2019, 05:17 PM

I'm not hurting for Aards that much yet - I'm still maxed on Neutral and Evil Aards and those have been all I'm finding, but if I keep getting drained on a regular basis I'll definitely add those into my rotation.

I haven't been able to play much this week, especially with school starting up and work picking up as it relates to that, but I'm around 370 Paladin now. I succeeded on a T'Mana quest (thank you T'Mana mod, they almost always spawn on the stairs on 12 above the Graveyard with a pack of death hawks or silent eagles), and am just working my way down one step at a time whenever I actually get an opportunity to play.

I'm critting a lot more thanks to my paladin levels, so even though I stop getting A/D at 430 I can still justify the extra levels to hit the second swing at 498. Plus Paladin might just be the better class equipment-wise to do my long-term endgame grind, at least until I find Mage Armor.

Plus if spellcasting power is just based on active guild more than on actual spellcasting guild then that REALLY means I should focus on Paladin after hitting minimum spell cost. That would definitely explain why some of my spells seem to be more effective even when I've only been leveling Paladin for the last 100+ levels.

Posted by: Roland Sep 6 2019, 06:54 PM

What weapon are you using as a Paladin?

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 7 2019, 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 6 2019, 12:54 PM) *
What weapon are you using as a Paladin?


I've not found many good weapons, and I really value defense over offense, so I'm just using a Vorpal Blade with a Shield of Defense. Elf strength can't use the Spectral shield, and no other weapon really has enough damage to justify giving up the 30+ defense between the two. I've considered using an Avenger for a bit, but the damage numbers I've been getting are decent enough that I haven't felt like the Avenger really adds enough to make it worthwhile.
Elf strength is also cutting into the other weapons I could even potentially use. Giant King Hammer is solidly off the table, for one, as are things like the Holy Sword.

The only other things I've found that are even worth considering are a Mace of Disruption (they really didn't like maces in this game did they, this thing's stats are terriible0, Hammer of Flames (poor weapon, mostly just a wand), Vampire Fang (which is only slightly better in damage and backstab but loses 12 defense and several swings) or an axe of power (which I can't use as a paladin).

Posted by: Roland Sep 8 2019, 04:01 AM

Yes, I can see the advantages of the Vorpal Blade. My Seeker/Thief uses a VB - since he leads the party, the extra defense is good, and the +1 dex helps with initiative. But he doesn't have to do knock-out damgage since he has a Warrior with an Eliminator backing him up.

My Morloch is getting to the point where he can consider other options than Vamp Fang, so your deliberations re: weapon choice are useful.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 9 2019, 11:09 PM

New Video, Part #50 in the official Gil'Thrialle series, where I finally use that dragon's blood https://youtu.be/bQS2wTRHc5Q

I keep losing vampire fangs to slime traps. Thankfully I haven't dropped too much else, and I have the cash to replace them, but it's still annoying to be at the bottom and have to claw my way back to the top with no weapon. I actually ended up using an un-ID'ed staff one time, which turned out to be a Staff of Helarno. It was pretty good - until I came back and ID'ed it to find out it was Evil-aligned, meaning i had to pay almost 200M just to unequip it. sad.gif

I'm starting the grind on Sorcerer again, with the goal of 313 being my magic number. I've started noticing I'm actually getting less and less exp for dealing the same damage on my Paladin, so that actually means my leveling rate as Sorcerer is roughly the same, even though I have higher XP goals to hit. The EXP calculation is also fairly interesting - a monster like Asteryex gives me like 1k exp for every 70 or so damage I deal, whereas other monsters only give me a few hundred for the same or more damage dealt. There must be some sort of level modifier on the monster side as well as on the player side, which is yet ANOTHER way the game forces you deeper and deeper into the labyrinth. I kind of like it, but at the same time I understand how it can be annoying, especially when I don't feel strong enough to be regularly taking on these monsters. But hey, the game wants you to always feel at least a little in danger - that's why they introduce so many aging, draining or other annoying monster types deep in the dungeon.

Overall my character is sitting at over 80M exp total across all their guild levels. It really is quite impressive how quickly those numbers add up. I also peaked at 2.6 Billion gold in bank, though the escapades of losing vampire fangs and having to pay to unequip the staff has gotten that back down closer to 2.25 Billion. That's why you gotta be careful with money - you never know when you're going to just lose a whole ton of it at once.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 11 2019, 11:11 AM

Haha, i can't believe how many slime traps you open. You gotta break that habit before you start wearing any truly irreplaceable equipment! smile.gif

You're right about the exp formula. Monster level, your level, damage done, companion, party are all part of it iirc.

Good luck with your sorcerer levels. I remember it being fantastic when I got up around 300 with my osirri.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 11 2019, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 11 2019, 05:11 AM) *
Haha, i can't believe how many slime traps you open. You gotta break that habit before you start wearing any truly irreplaceable equipment! smile.gif

Like my Gauntlets of Slaying, or Scarab of Protection? unsure.gif

I've gotten into the habit of creating a "backup" every time I finish a Mordor session. If anything particularly bad happens during the session, I weigh the value of the thing that happened compared to the progress lost. If I got aged 10+ years or lost a totally unique item, that's usually worth resetting for, but sometimes it happens after a dozen or so levels and I decide that the progress is worth the risk - that's the game, after all.

I rarely end up reloading the backup, but I did one time when I got paralyzed and mugged by a ghoul and a minion of death on my first trip of the day to the graveyard : shocked.gif

I've stopped opening MOST slime traps, but I do still open those that are connected to dragon's blood-dropping monsters, or the Mother of Serpents.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 11 2019, 07:31 PM

Haha, well at least they aren't an unidentified blood or a blessing of morash! I slimed a blessing once... not_ok.gif

Do you feel like you get worthwhile loot from MoS? I'm always really excited about her when I can first step into 12 and manage to kill her. But with my last solo run, I quickly got to feeling like the miniscule chance for an upgrade wasn't worth the 20-30 spell points I would need to kill her.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 12 2019, 04:25 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 11 2019, 01:31 PM) *
Haha, well at least they aren't an unidentified blood or a blessing of morash! I slimed a blessing once... not_ok.gif

Do you feel like you get worthwhile loot from MoS? I'm always really excited about her when I can first step into 12 and manage to kill her. But with my last solo run, I quickly got to feeling like the miniscule chance for an upgrade wasn't worth the 20-30 spell points I would need to kill her.


There are several things I *could* be getting from her that I'm not. I definitely feel it's still worth stopping by when she respawns, though it does definitely mean a drain on my resources as I generally have to spend two casts of EF to guarantee a kill, and will take 100-200 damage from her acid attacks in the process. ESPECIALLY IF SHE SPAWNS PEACED OMG WHY IS SHE NEUTRAL?!

I am still visiting her if only to get a few backup pieces for thinks like gauntlets and scarabs before moving deeper. She has an "anything" drop slot and a drop table from floor 14, so I still think she's one of the better-dropping monsters in the dungeon, particularly for how convenient it is to stop by her lair, but I do agree that in a cost-for-reward she might get beaten out once you're able to survive down to 14 effectively.

She's still easier to kill than a school of Lamurian Guards, though, and her monster level and large Hits pool means she's at least worth some pretty good exp.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 12 2019, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 12 2019, 12:25 PM) *
ESPECIALLY IF SHE SPAWNS PEACED OMG


Do you have much luck hitting a fast-casting spell then EF before the former actually casts? I can get it to work about 3/4 of the time or maybe a bit better.

Posted by: Roland Sep 12 2019, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 12 2019, 01:53 PM) *
Do you have much luck hitting a fast-casting spell then EF before the former actually casts? I can get it to work about 3/4 of the time or maybe a bit better.

I often hit buffer 5 (Dazzle) and then immediately hit buffer 4 (Soul Entrapment) to charm peaced monsters. I can't remember the last time it failed.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 12 2019, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 12 2019, 11:53 AM) *
Do you have much luck hitting a fast-casting spell then EF before the former actually casts? I can get it to work about 3/4 of the time or maybe a bit better.


I don't know if it's because I'm running in Windows inside Dosbox that the emulation buffering prevents it or what, but I've *never* been able to get that to work. Is there a faster way to use buffers? I always just use shift + the number key.
And does it matter if it's buffered from an item or from an actual spell? Like, if I'm casting Static Mesh from a static sash and trying to switch to EF, will that be different than if I cast SM from a spell buffer and then replace with EF?

The timing is also unspecific. Sometimes things happen gosh-dang IMMEDIATELY when I press the key vs a peaced mob, other times it gives me half a second to think about it, but either way I have a hard time actually getting any sort of shift active. Heck, I sometimes have issues changing my action between combat rounds - I push 3-4 times on the 'F'ight key whenever I'm changing from a buffer, and whenever I cast from a buffer I sometimes have to push it twice to get it to work - which then means sometimes I switch attack groups instead of spells if it doesn't register my Shift input.

Needless to say, peaced mobs are the bane of my existence as a Good-aligned character who relies on their high-level spells to kill anything remotely tough. I've only run into one Griffin in my life, but that was pretty nerve-wracking as I knew I'd need to survive an entire round of combat before being able to unleash a Paralyzing Death on all those mundragons.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 12 2019, 10:05 PM

I use buffer slots and/or u key for highlighted item, but am playing in Vista (somehow it works with no shenanigans).

The delay may be because of peaced vs hostile. If you enter a room against a hostile creature, you have like half a second or so (?) to select or even change options before it resolves. If you enter against a peaced monster, it's a lot faster (to the point where pressing F instantly happens). But with my setup I still can use shift+X to "aggro" a peaced monster with like leprosy then switch with shift+y to word of death kr whatever.

On a related note, I had a bug with the game once when I came out of sleep mode with the game still open where it played at like tripke speed. laugh.gif. It was fun while it lasted cause solo melee resolution went by really fast!

Posted by: Roland Sep 12 2019, 11:09 PM

I run Mordor under Windows XP. I only use that machine for gaming and image storage - I turned off the wifi a few years ago.

I have sometimes experienced the triple-speed melee resolution. It really speeds up those Giant Crocodile encounters!

Posted by: korexus Sep 14 2019, 12:05 AM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 12 2019, 11:05 PM) *
On a related note, I had a bug with the game once when I came out of sleep mode with the game still open where it played at like tripke speed. laugh.gif. It was fun while it lasted cause solo melee resolution went by really fast!


Not strictly speaking a bug with the game, more an artifact of CPU clocks.

If a machine detects that it's clock is a bit behind, rather than just adjusting the time (which can cause all sorts of bugs in badly written software) it speeds up its clock until it has caught up. This means that anything which is relying on clock ticks to make events happen will trigger them more frequently until the clock has caught up (avoiding aforementioned bugs) but looks very odd if you're watching it.

It's usually seen when a paused VM is restarted, but it could happen coming out of sleep mode I guess. The behaviour varies depending on how big the time lag is, so it would be tricky to trigger this effect to speed up encounters without wasting an equivalent amount of time pausing the machine.

korexus.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 19 2019, 02:27 PM

Strictly speaking, I should *never* claim that I have "more time and will be able to record and update more frequently." Because that's exactly when I'm going to get sick or otherwise lose all that time that I had just opened.

Not been able to play much this week. Still grinding Sorcerer up - only around 262 right now, so got a good 50 levels to go. I've been messing around with alternate routes through the dungeon that might focus on bigger EXP gain - in particular hitting up the lake on 11 as opposed to just sticking to the graveyard (mostly because I'm sick and tired of getting drained by Liches, so much so that I'm seriously considering switching back to the Ring of Entrapment), but the lake hasn't seemed that great unless I run into a ton of 4x Hammerhead packs. Because I need nearly 200k exp for each level (and my exp gain as a whole is pretty low considering I just passed 25M in sorc alone), I struggle to actually get to level-up status before draining my SP unless I run into a string of very exp-heavy monsters, like Asteryex or silent/golden eagles. Maybe I should consider hitting up the Slither room on 14, but the last two times I went there it was inhabited only by a Daemon Lord.
Other places I've considered are the lake on 13 (because of high quantities of 4x Lamurian Outcast groups, whom I can down with a single ParDeath as opposed to soldiers, scouts or guards), or even hitting up the lake on 14, but the risk of hitting a dragon turtle and instantly dying has me on edge, and the sheer number of guards and soldiers on 14 makes that place really hard to level in when I don't have a good melee weapon, my spells are ineffective most of the time, and they still hit me more often than not.

Right now I feel the big difference between routes optimized for items (Pariah routes (still have never seen one in my life), the graveyard for blood, etc) and routes optimized for exp (lakes, Slithers). I really want better items (technically mom can drop a lot of upgrades for me still but she's not really been doing much of that as of late), but right now I need to just grind out sorcerer as fast as possible so I can get back to a set that has good A/D, good melee combat, and a higher overall level for spell damage.

Any suggestions on better places to focus on?

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 19 2019, 03:40 PM

No especially bright ideas here, just general advice from my couple solo runs:

My solo guys always just ran pariah rooms 12-14 with visits to 11 lake (or maybe quick trips through goblins, cockatrice, twisted elf, and 7 lake looking for rings and aards) while pariah route respawned. Then when I was tough enough I'd visit 15 pariah rooms and clear as many non-stud rooms there as I can instead of doing anything on 1-11.

I always super duper prioritized finding blessings because of how amazing they are, and figured even if exp feels slow sometimes, it's still more efficient overall to get ok exp while maximizing chances of pariahs than to get somewhat more exp but no pariah chances.

That slither room on 14 is only maybe 1/4 or 1/3 chance of seeing slithers it feels like. Nice when you get them but gotta nuke that daemon lord asap to avoid aging when he is there. My mage always went in with field of death and it'd kill stuff either way.

If you are comfortable enough handling gargantuan and golden eagle groups on 14, you can do the non-stud rooms on 15 too (I think the northwest corner stud room is safe though, iirc. It cant spawn devils, demons, OR undead, but it's also a pariah room with a little chance of a black gremlin too). I don't have the dragon turtle mod, but even if you just go around the rooms on the west side of 15, you can find more pariah rooms, dragon king and queen, magi lord (staff and cross!), and more. The higher level stuff is nicer exp, and there are a few more slither rooms (though screw that antimagic slither room, especially when it has those scorpion dudes in it instead). It's just a matter of whether you can get down there, fight around, and still get back to town safely.


If you have money to spare, use dalyns groan and recharge it to prolong your stays at the lower levels. Just make sure you keep more fate potions/dust and/or healing items and/or scrolls/tomes of spells too incase you get a bad roll on fate. You can temporarily unequip dex and wis gear when opening fate traps to try to increase your odds of triggering them too (I think), and save opening them until you would be about to go back to town cause of low sp but before you use consumables/recharges.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 19 2019, 04:35 PM

Never encountered Gargantuans yet - from their stats they don't *look* like they'd be too much worse than golden eagles, though I guess it depends on just how many spawn at a time.

As for your 12-14 Pariah route, that's a Traveling Salesman problem if I've ever seen one - one interrupted by random teleport traps and the like, but a traveling salesman problem nonetheless. Which rooms/clusters do you focus on more than others? Or are easier to work into your route? I need to study those maps more, but with how fast my dungeon respawns (plus the fact that I often don't play long enough for more than a few runs right now) I don't really have the time to hit up every single potential Mythical room on the map before they start respawning.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 19 2019, 05:22 PM

Gargantuans tend to be in 2-3 groups of 2-4 each I think. They're fairly more dangerous imo; a little higher attack and a lot higher strength, plus at 500 average hits it's easy to get unlucky (or just not be high enough level) and your spell doesn't wipe out a stack like you want.

"My" pariah route is zip down to most using 4-6 teleporters, stairs to 7, chute to 10, chute to 13, fight down through fog and clear all the rooms in the east and south, drop to 14 and hit the rooms I can reach before I need to ethereal portal, then portal/displace through the 3 corner areas that have rooms. I probably return to town at this point then get the rooms on 12-13 I missed the first time by getting to 10 then walking down to MoS, possibly skipping her and often just running last floor 12 monsters unless they can stone. Then I go back down to 15 and get what I can there, focused on pariah rooms but usually clearing more too if I can handle it.

At lower levels I'd start at MoS and walk my way down instead of starting on 13.

You have to be pretty badass to be able to fight through all the rooms on 12-14 before 12 respawns, but delaying visiting the start of the route if it means upgrades from 15 is worth it once you can do 15 imo.

Be careful of teleport traps on 14 since you can get teleported in on gargantuans or golden eagles when not expecting it, and just leave teleport traps alone all together on 15 unless it's a pariah/black gremlin chest. Teleporting into a stud room on 15 is a great way to die horribly, especially when you don't have the whole place mapped yet, laugh.gif


Edit - oh, and the mythical spawn location maps on the wiki aren't 100% accurate. There's a few wrong and a few not shown iirc, based on using braindeads map editor.

Posted by: Roland Sep 19 2019, 08:51 PM

I just checked the library. In my dungeon, Gargantuans have been responsible for 9 character deaths (out of 30 total deaths), while Golden Eagles are not associated with a single character death. Gargants' greater strength and attack makes them very dangerous.

Unfortunately, Gargantuans don't make great companions. Their low defense makes them hard to keep alive. Golden Eagles are much better for that purpose.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 19 2019, 11:10 PM

Just met my first group of gargantuans, in the stud room in the fog on 13. Yeah, they're pretty beastly, though their lack of resistances mean any spell I throw at them can get through.

Which raises an interesting question - are the calculations on spell damage in Seth's Spell Cost Guide accurate? Because I don't see any sort of intelligence value listed there, but in the raw spell damage formula found here http://dejenol.com/index.php?title=Spell_Damage_Formula it says that the spell power is modified by int.

I only raise the question because the data it has on the spells kind of blows my mind. Like... I get that Electric Field is a 10/51 spell, compared to something like Arctic Storm's 42/21 (or what have you, so I would assume that Arctic Storm would have higher damage at lower int (and spell level, since the power value increments linear on SL but the base increments on the natural log), but from every consideration it looks like Electric Field is the king of damage spells, behind only Flesh to Stone, the ineffable WoD itself, and Soul Entrapment. It's close in damage up until somewhere around SL150 where it kind of just rockets ahead of everything else.

But I'm wondering if those calculations are correct because the INT part of the calculation doesn't seem visible. If the system is counting int as something incredibly high then that makes sense, but if it's counting it as 1 or something then DANG the scaling on SL alone is crazy, and ideally I should have the strongest spells because of the highest possible INT.

Posted by: Roland Sep 19 2019, 11:41 PM

In the spell damage formula, I think INT means integer, not intelligence. For some reason, the game's formulae often round to integer values for intermediate computations.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 20 2019, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 19 2019, 07:41 PM) *
In the spell damage formula, I think INT means integer, not intelligence. For some reason, the game's formulae often round to integer values for intermediate computations.


Omg. This game's formulae. It took me years of playing SERIOUSLY before I learned some of the notations. Like exp in the trap disarm formula... laugh.gif

Back in the day it definitely ways annoyed me that int and Wis (well, sight) weren't factors in spell damage though.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 20 2019, 02:33 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 19 2019, 05:41 PM) *
In the spell damage formula, I think INT means integer, not intelligence. For some reason, the game's formulae often round to integer values for intermediate computations.


...
...
...
is my entire life a lie? unsure.gif

Well then, it seems like the second number is MUCH more important than the first number in spells, then. Rather, the first number determines where the spell starts at, but the second determines where it can go.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 22 2019, 03:39 AM

I just learned some new stuff. Particularly...
1. Every time you get drained, you lose 1 max HP, even if the drain doesn't actually take a stat (rare but it happens). So over the course of my sorcerer leveling, my max HP has slowly dwindled from 977 to 969.
EDIT: Wait I just got drained for another Con point and didn't lose any HP... Maybe it's only certain monster's drain attacks that drain hp? Like liches?
2. My issue with not being able to switch-cast? That's the same issue with my emulation that prevents me from holding shift-down to run back and forth in place. For some reason, as soon as I hit another key, they shift input is forgotten - I need to release shift and press it again in order to use another shift-input. In doing this I have managed to occasionally switch-cast from Acidic Spray to Electric Field, though it isn't a guaranteed thing as I still sometimes cast immediately against peaced enemies.
3. I should be going to the Slither room more often - not only is it a perfect place to drain my Static sashes, but I can just sit there and gain dozens of thousands of exp in just a few rounds of combat, with little to no danger to myself outside of, y'know, actually GETTING there. (and the chance of daemon lord).
4. Pariahs aren't actually real. I've seen a million golden centaurs, but the fabled Pariah has yet to reveal itself. Plus the odds of it actually dropping a blessing are so freaking low (one item of 10 in their drop list) that I'm about giving up hope to ever actually find a blessing. wallbash.gif

I also just found my second Dragon's Blood - from a spectral dragon on 14 - and quaffed it as soon as I got it back to town. Gil'Thrialle is now under 40 years old for the first time in a long while. ok.gif

I've also gained a ton of exp over the course of my power-leveling. I'm over 31 million total in Sorcerer now, and sitting at level 298. Just 15 away from minimum cost EF - it's strange just how a reduction of 3-4 points feels so much better. Casting at 12 feels *sooooo* much better than casting at 15.

Posted by: Roland Sep 22 2019, 05:26 AM

If you have trouble with casting attack spells at peaced monsters, here's the foolproof solution: run a Morloch! Their charisma is so low that no monster will stay peaced for long.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 22 2019, 05:57 AM

You can get drained of 1 stat point OR 2 max hp. If the drain does t show a stat in the little log window, it was 2 max hits.

Try to do shift+key for your fast spell to break leave then instantly click on the button for your big nuke on the dungeon window?

I actually saw 2 pariahs tonight with my party, but only 1 chest and it was a curses item. My solo osirri seems likely he just had stellar luck, getting several blessings from only like 30 (I think) pariahs in 200-250 hours of play. Just gotta keep at it. It's 95% of what I do once I am running lower levels, just cycling through the 50-60 potential rooms forever and ever. laugh.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 22 2019, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 21 2019, 11:57 PM) *
You can get drained of 1 stat point OR 2 max hp. If the drain does t show a stat in the little log window, it was 2 max hits.

Try to do shift+key for your fast spell to break leave then instantly click on the button for your big nuke on the dungeon window?


That makes sense. I got drained by a Lich for 2 points of charisma and 2 HP, so I suppose that's what happened. And through 90% drain resist as well. Perhaps the extra 5% really is worth it...

That's a really good point about the dungeon window buffer buttons. I need to remember that there are numbers to use, and that the mouse is useful for more than just selecting windows. I'll see about trying that out when next I encounter a peaceful mob I want to blast away.


Anyway, new video is out! - https://youtu.be/4YRfwCphbCM

I only have 5 more levels to go in Sorcerer. I'm feeling the power of Electric Field, and I'm really feeling the potential of grinding out the Slither room, but I'm *ALSO* feeling just how pitiful my melee ability actually is when I have nothing but a vampire fang, going up against master thieves, heroes, demons and the like. Heck, I find myself panicking if I end up in a fight with a couple mundragons without enough SP to blast them with Paralyzing Death or the like. The damage I take REALLY adds up fast, especially to breath weapons.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 24 2019, 02:34 PM

Finished leveling Sorcerer, feels really good to have minimum cost EF and PD. I also feel like these spells are a lot more powerful now than they used to be, even though I'm the same Paladin level now as I was back then. For instance, I used to not be able to reliably get any kills on Lamurians with electric field, but now I can reliably down even Guards with a single cast. I looked at the game and it always displays my sorcerer level when describing what spell level it is cast at.
What's more is I've actually been able to kill entire groups of Mundragons with a single Acidic Spray. I am under no impression that this is going to be a regular thing, as they probably just all rolled low on HP and I got a lucky damage roll, but the spell is DEFINITELY stronger than it used to be.
Is it possible that the game is ACTUALLY able to register the spell level of the specific guild when casting an offensive spell, but healing spells only go by your current guild level? I can't help but feel like at least one of these interactions is bugged... dntknw.gif

Speaking of stronger monsters, I encountered my second batch of Gargantuans while exploring unexplored rooms on 14... And they handily dispatched me in a single round because I missed my EF buffer and cast my static sash instead. Then I took 600+ damage in a single round and... well... blink.gif As such I've learned to never explore new dungeon on 14-15 without being at least close to full hp, and I've ALSO learned to always have enough SP for EF and to have my hand ready to cast it at all times.

I'm also getting REAL sick and tired of the inconsistent damage of the Vorpal Blade. I'm hitting for everything between 30 and 130 before backstab or crit are applied. It kind of ticks me off when I fail to kill a floor 5-6 mob because of a combined low damage roll and high HP roll. That said, as a solo char I feel a very strong need for the extra defense provided from the shield of defense... Is now the time that I should switch over to a mace of disruption or sword of slaying?

The top-tier weapon I could ever wield, assuming I found one, would be either a Lightning Blade or a Flaming Sword. Too bad there's not much chance of me finding either one of those without a lot of runs through floor 15. Though now that I have EF at minimum cost and dealing several hundred damage on the regular I should be able to survive down there reasonably well... unsure.gif

Posted by: BLauritson Sep 24 2019, 06:13 PM

As far as I'm aware, although others might be able to correct me on this, the game takes the highest spell level of all the guilds that can cast a given spell when calculating its power. So for healing spells, if say Paladin is at a higher spell level even though another guild (say Mage) can already cast it for a lower cost, it will use the Paladin spell level for calculating its effectiveness. But if you were then to level a guild that couldn't cast healing spells, such as Nomad, then even if your Nomad spell level was significantly higher it wouldn't make any difference, the game would still use the Paladin spell level.

By all means contradict me if anyone knows better biggrin.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 24 2019, 07:13 PM

Offensive spells cast at the highest casting level of a guild you have that can cast that spell, just like you'd expect. But healing spells at bugged so that they cast at the current guild CL (but at the guild you learned it from SP cost) even if current guild never can learn a single healing spell. It's very noticeable if you dip, for example, a 200 nomad into a few levels of healer, or if your 200 healer picks up a new guild and tries to heal with restoration at level 1.

Also, lightning blade is super easy to find! http://dejenol.com/index.php?title=Lamurian_Lord is laired and has 4 chances to drop it per kill. He isn't too too awfully tough and his lair is easy to get to. The real danger in fighting him is his tiny room is a rotator. One door leads back out, one door leads to the high priestess + destroyer of the deep lair, who are very dangerous.

Posted by: Roland Sep 24 2019, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 24 2019, 03:13 PM) *
Offensive spells cast at the highest casting level of a guild you have that can cast that spell, just like you'd expect. But healing spells at bugged so that they cast at the current guild CL (but at the guild you learned it from SP cost) even if current guild never can learn a single healing spell. It's very noticeable if you dip, for example, a 200 nomad into a few levels of healer, or if your 200 healer picks up a new guild and tries to heal with restoration at level 1.

Another thing that is based on the current guild level is item-based Protection. When you switch to a lower-level guild, your protection (which is just invislble defense) is reduced.

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 24 2019, 03:13 PM) *
Also, lightning blade is super easy to find! http://dejenol.com/index.php?title=Lamurian_Lord is laired and has 4 chances to drop it per kill. He isn't too too awfully tough and his lair is easy to get to. The real danger in fighting him is his tiny room is a rotator. One door leads back out, one door leads to the high priestess + destroyer of the deep lair, who are very dangerous.

That rotator in LL's lair is a good place to cast Find Direction - unless you are prepared to fight LHP + DD.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 25 2019, 12:30 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 24 2019, 05:04 PM) *
That rotator in LL's lair is a good place to cast Find Direction - unless you are prepared to fight LHP + DD.


Ooh, nice thinking.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 25 2019, 07:40 PM

If the lightning blade is so easily accessible I'm DEFINITELY going to seek after that.
And yeah, that explanation makes sense. I definitely healed for less while leveling as mage than when leveling as paladin. It's also hard to really say for sure how protection affects how I experience my defense since it's invisible, and also because my paladin is not just higher level but also has significantly better A/D from gear.
So damage spells are directly affected by casting guild... maybe I'm not completely done with Sorcerer after all... though 225sl EF should be strong enough for most situations, so a lightning blade would make an ideal panic button.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 26 2019, 12:41 AM

Yeah, 225 is super strong. CL caps out at 256 I think.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 28 2019, 11:19 PM

New video - and it's not even Monday! https://youtu.be/cBCQmWflAO4

I decided to visit every laired monster in the game, just to see how strong I've become. Turns out with a Lightning Blade, 468 defense and 999 hits I can survive quite well.
I've been hitting up both the Lamurian Lord and the High Priestess pretty regularly. The high priestess & destroyer aren't too bad to fight - I just need to make sure I am good on HP before going in. 2-3 casts of EF drop the destroyer, and that leaves the priestess weak enough that a good Flesh to Stone finishes her off without issue.

In terms of floor 15 valuables, I've found two Staves of Destruction, a Cross of Requnix, a Lightning Blade, a Ring of Splendor, two Lamurian Crowns and a Helm of Knowledge. I've mapped about 90% of floor 14 and over half of floor 15. I'm still using a Shield of Defense - I'm not strong enough to wield a Spectral Shield, and my armor is still the studded Cuirboli I've had since floor 10. Mithril helmet/gauntlets are the other things I'm looking to upgrade, but losing see invisible is inconvenient enough to annoy me from dropping my helmet just yet.

I think it won't be long until I start my hunt for the *true* final bosses of the game. I'm sitting at 400 Paladin, almost capped A/D and working ever closer to that second free swing. I'm 20 Sorc levels away from using that Staff of Destruction, but once I hit that benchmark my sorcerer melee damage will *actually* be better than my Paladin damage.

In the meantime, I think my next party will be a 3-man - Fighter, Thief, Healer. All neutral party. Still not sure what the best race for Healer is, so I'll probably go either Human or Dwarf unless y'all have any better ideas. I know it's classic and boring, but hey - it works! Plus I've been playing Elf too long - I need to be able to kill something in melee.

Also, if I were to, say, name them after you all, which one would you like to be? wink.gif

Posted by: Roland Sep 29 2019, 04:26 AM

The best spell to use against LHP + DD is Paralyzing Death. LHP has 85% resistance to electrical attacks, but only 40% to paralysis.

My on-line persona is named for the protagonist of the Warren Zevon song Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner. And he is presumably named for the hero of the medieval French epic, The Song of Roland. So I think Roland should be the Warrior of your new party.

Posted by: BLauritson Sep 29 2019, 07:01 AM

If you want your Healer character to concentrate purely on that guild then Dwarf would be a slightly better choice than Human on the stats front - one extra point of Str and Wis, two extra points of Con. The experience modifier is 5 for Dwarf compared to 3 for Human, but they also have 175 extra years on their maximum age. How much that experience differential would pan out in the long run though I don't know.

The only other races who can join Healer are Elf, Gnome and Osiri. Gnomes have the same Str and Con as Humans but have one extra of Int and Wis, so that's 10 extra SP in the long run, plus they have 200 years on Humans, but the experience modifier is 7 for them. Elves have the best SP potential but you've already indicated you want something stronger smile.gif Osiri probably isn't the best choice as their only advantages over Human are Con and Dex, but they have one less Wis (so 5 less SP potential) and although their maximum age is good (325) their experience modifier is 8 so that would most probably scale quite heavily in the long run.

Of course all that is just me looking at the race stats and making assumptions from there, so others might have more experience they can draw upon. My party's Healer is an Osiri but that's because I wanted her primarily as a Thief, and I've never reached anywhere close to the endgame with any other characters so I don't know how the experience scaling compares.

I've always liked games that have stealth mechanics in them so Thief would be an appealing choice for me biggrin.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 1 2019, 02:11 PM

Death #4 is here - at the hands of the Lamurian High Priestess, who PARALYZED me. Obviously it did not take long for her and her little boyfriend to drop me once I couldn't move.
That said - I didn't realize until now that the main damage spell she seems to cast is Soul Entrapment. Like, what?? How did they program that into a damage spell for enemies to work wholly different from the charm spell?!

In charming the Medusa in my video, I also figured out something else that I forgot to bring attention to in my post - apparently the Lynch Demon still takes damage from monster spellcasting. Medusa *casts* Acidic Spray, she does not spit acid, but it still dealt damage to the Lynch Demon all the same. Makes me wonder - monster spellcasting ignores the "magic immunity" perk certain monsters have, but discrete monster resistances still appear to apply vs spells.

Another thing I forgot to mention in my post with my video - I found my first Pariah! They do exist! This one only had a Last Laugh for me, though. Honestly probably the weakest curse it could have dropped, but still sleep.gif

Been fighting a lot more on floor 15, but still no new upgrades. Every Warlord, Gorgon or other crazy enemy I fight down there never has any chests, and those that do only carry saber blades. mad.gif I grabbed a Red-Cloak Assassin companion once going down, and MAN I didn't realize they had over 800 attack. The return trip was pretty clear - I basically had one free swing that killed on practically every hit. Made me half-tempted to focus more on mage so I can spam SE. Either that or switch back to a Ring of Entrapment, though at this point giving up the Ring of Splendor hurts a bit.

I'm almost level 410 Paladin, so 20 more to go until max A/D, and then 78 more for my second swing. After that I'm honestly tempted to go back and level Sorcerer because of that Staff of Destruction, and the fact that my hand-casted EF and PD still don't really guarantee what I need them to guarantee down in the depths of floor 15. That said, I'm honestly about as strong as I'm going to get. It's looking like it might be time for Asmodeus-Or-Bust.

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 1 2019, 04:15 PM

Haha, I warned you those two are nasty! They're sneaky about it. They seem easy when you don't get paralyzed, but even 1-2 rounds paralyzed and the DOTD backstabbing + critting + electrocuting really hurts. You lose a LOT of defense when paralyzed.

Grats on seeing a pariah!

The big guy is no joke even at your stats though. I won't give any spoilers specifically, but if you want to try kill him without dying, you need to do everything you can! And the demon prince is even worse, imo.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 3 2019, 02:38 PM

Yeah, I've already looked up all the toughest mobs via the Wiki years ago, back when ever getting here was just a pipe dream. I'm well aware of at least SOME of what Asmo can do, though the specifics of just how much to expect is going to be a surprise.
In the meantime, I've been exploring a bit more of 15, just working on mapping it out. I still have 3 rough sections left I haven't gotten around to - the 1x1 room chain in the upper left, the series of connected rooms in the bottom left, and then the entire bottom right quadrant.

Most dangerous thing I've seen so far is probably the Reaper of Souls with a full complement of liches. He only hit me once, though, and only took 30 weeks off my life. Aside from that I've fought a few Gorgons, a smattering of death stalkers and assassins, and even the Warlord a few times. No chests on any of them, though. Mostly I just zap the lake of all its exp - when I'm getting 20-30k exp from a single pack of Warriors it definitely feels pretty good to just powerlevel down there, especially when a single shake of my Lightning Blade can destroy all of them with practically no thought involved. The only things that have a chance of surviving are Lamurian Mages with their massive resistance, or Great Whites who roll really well on their HP while I roll poorly on damage.

I've been finding myself taking basically an entire run just to clear the path down to 14 sometimes. Usually when the short time I'm in the Graveyard (just passing through on my way to 14) involves me getting either drained or opening a Fate trap with bad results. I really should be training myself to play slower, to not just auto-pilot and open chests, and to think before I type. But any time it's a monster that *could* drop dragon's blood I just can't help myself. I've definitely gotten better at scouting for Slime traps and not opening them automatically, as well as deliberately scouting for trap type, so at least that's some progress? dntknw.gif

Still haven't really gotten the chance to play much this week. I've had such long days that I feel I can't even muster the energy to open up my laptop when I get home. Plus I've had friends actually want to spend time with me this week, which has been a pleasant surprise. I'll probably carve out a few runs over the weekend though. If I can at least hit the 430 Paladin benchmark I'll be happy, though I won't really feel confident in scouring the stud rooms of 15 until I can get at least SOME upgrades to my equipment. Another Scarab of Life wouldn't be bad, maybe some better gauntlets, and DEFINITELY some actual armor. Studded boiled leather (Cuirboli) just isn't cutting it anymore. The fact that I've been seriously considering grabbing that Spectral Chain despite how much I feel that -1 dex says something about how much I fear for my life on 15.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 5 2019, 09:08 PM

WOO! Finally 430 Paladin! My A/D have capped out. 223/258 from guild, and after equipment and all that it ends up being 408/485 with my current Paladin gear.

The only equipment upgrade I've gotten so far is a Girdle of Giant Strength, and that +2 dex definitely feels nice. I also found 2 more Pariahs - one more on 13 just south of the stairs to 14, and one in my very first visit to the northwest corner stud room on 15. No good items, just another Evil Laugh, but it always feels good to find these things, especially now that I'm working in some better Mythical hunting practices. I also ran into my first Rust Monster, though luckily I escaped without losing anything 1337.gif

I finally drained the last of the 200+ use Gem of Healing I've been saving up, so now it's time to break out my 82-charge Crystal of Restoration. I should probably be a bit more careful with my healing items - I can't really afford to spend all the SP necessary to full heal myself after every fight on 15, and my Paladin crest only goes so far - but they've been a massive help in allowing me to explore 15 and survive fights with Gargantuans and Great Whites.

I also have almost fully drained my Lightning Blade of charges - thank goodness it's rechargeable - and am also running through my Static Sash bank pretty quickly as well. I DEFINITELY have been underestimating the power of spellcasting items. When I first started playing, they were an emergency button that I rarely used. Now, I almost feel like I use them too much laugh.gif just throwing them around whenever I feel like it.

What I really want right now, aside from better armor, are some Boots of the Elven Lords. I'm tired of having to hold onto a Sphere of Dislocation at all times just in case I get teleported at low SP or have a terrible Fate roll, and whenever a Master Thief steals it from me it always just gets me upset.

I also died again to Golden Eagles, because I was a bit distracted by trying to watch Lord of the Rings with friends while absent-mindedly grinding, forgot to heal to full and then got crit for over 300. blink.gif

Posted by: BLauritson Oct 6 2019, 06:48 AM

Nicely done! You've clearly put a lot of effort in to get there so it's good to see you reaching that goal ok.gif

How long do you think it will be before taking the fight to the big boss himself? sneaky.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 6 2019, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (BLauritson @ Oct 6 2019, 12:48 AM) *
Nicely done! You've clearly put a lot of effort in to get there so it's good to see you reaching that goal ok.gif

How long do you think it will be before taking the fight to the big boss himself? sneaky.gif


This character's been kicking around for around 5 years, so it's probably for the best that I finish it off soon so I can get on to something else laugh.gif

I don't know when exactly I'll start my hunt for Asmodeus. I want to get it on recording if I can, so I'll be careful on my hunt around 15 for equipment upgrades. That said, I *really* want to get some better loot. If I could get above 500 defense, that would seem like a nice benchmark. Not that it's gonna do much against the big bad and his 1500 attack but it's at least something?

Edit: I just picked up a Grey Elven Robe to replace my Silver Cloak. The +6 def and +1 dex has increased my stats to 410/493, so I'm only one or two equipment upgrades away from that 500 def mark that I feel comfortable with.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 8 2019, 02:08 PM

Floor 15 is fully mapped now, so unless I missed something that should be the entire dungeon mapped! Definitely tempted to Displacement to the other side of the teleporters on 8, 9, 14 and 15 (and/or just use "The Shift") just to make the map *look* right.
I've been getting maybe a *bit* too reckless in my exploration. I've died a total of 8 times now, most recently to my first ever pack of Flame Devils. I've also been aged a fair bit by Daemon Lords that I hit the wrong buffer on, and a Reaper of Souls who decided not to die in one EF, so Gil'Thrialle is around 70 right now.

That said, I'm 450 Paladin now, and I finally found my first piece of elite armor! Sure, it was Warrior armor and I couldn't use it, but still, it's something?
No new Pariahs as of late. Found a Gorgon with a chest, but all it had was gold. Been finding a lot of shock lances and miscellaneous swords, including a second Vorpal Blade, but not much else. I did find some Gauntlets of Slaying, though, so that's another 3/3 onto my stat line ok.gif

It's kind of surprising how rare certain items end up being. Like, I have a full stock of Scarabs of Defense and find a new Scarab of Pain every other run, but I've never run into Pure Mithril, and my very first Scarab of Life (that got slimed) has also been the only Scarab of Life I've ever found. And that's just considering stones! As for artifacts, I keep getting those dropped by what feels like everything through the dungeon, so I've got skeleton keys and Dalyn's Tears for days, but nothing useful. Not that I'll ever end up replacing Dalyn's Tear, though - paralysis and stone resist that doesn't go away from blackout is too important, and none of the other artifacts really feel like they give anything useful - especially when almost all of them are Cursed.

Posted by: Roland Oct 9 2019, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Oct 8 2019, 10:08 AM) *
As for artifacts, I keep getting those dropped by what feels like everything through the dungeon, so I've got skeleton keys and Dalyn's Tears for days, but nothing useful. Not that I'll ever end up replacing Dalyn's Tear, though - paralysis and stone resist that doesn't go away from blackout is too important, and none of the other artifacts really feel like they give anything useful - especially when almost all of them are Cursed.

Most of my characters still carry Unicorn Horns in the artifact slot. Dalyn's Tear would actually reduce Aelric's paralysis defense since Morlochs have it at 95% naturally. But I horde Mordin Glyphs, and my Paladin carries one when running 15 because Draining Touch is a good spell to use against the Big Guy if you can't cast Word of Death.

Dalyn's Last Laugh is a poor man's Blessing - it gives +1 on all stats. The main drawback is that you have to remove it to change guilds, and it costs around 50 million to uncurse. But I'm seriously thinking about having Aelric don one before his upcoming 65-level Sorcerer run. The +1 strength bonus might be sufficient to push his strength to 34, which would improve his melee damage a lot.

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 9 2019, 07:24 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Oct 8 2019, 10:08 AM) *
Floor 15 is fully mapped now


Brave man! Haha. I've only been going into stud rooms with my party that can't spawn devils or demons because running into the wrong ones seems like a death sentence still. My defenses dropped to a bit under 400 when I switched out of warrior sad.gif


QUOTE (Roland @ Oct 8 2019, 08:47 PM) *
Most of my characters still carry Unicorn Horns in the artifact slot.


Same here, for what it's worth. It seems like at least 3-4 poison and/or disease debuffs are on my party at any given time I'm in the dungeon... laugh.gif.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 10 2019, 02:33 PM

Yeah, the switch from Unicorn Horn to Dalyn's Tear was a hard one to make, but after getting blackout-trapped on what I thought was a safe return trip back to the dungeon, only to get paralyzed for 20 rounds straight by a lucky hit from a Kei-Shuma on floor 7 and almost DIE, I decided that blackout-proof paralysis resistance was more important than the convenience of living in a constant state of poison/disease. You can carry potions to cure poison and disease, but you can't cast Cure Paralysis on yourself in combat (which probably makes it the least useful spell in the entire game. At least the mediocre combat spells actually DO something when you cast them! not_ok.gif )

I haven't gotten around to playing more than a brief interlude of Mordor in the last several days. I keep thinking to myself that I should record a few Floor 15 runs, especially if I'm poking my head in stud rooms, but I've been so tired after school and work every day that I end up just collapsing and not wanting to talk think.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 14 2019, 02:41 PM

Between 460 and 470 Paladin now. Taking 230,000 exp per level, and most monsters except for those on 13 or lower barely give exp at all. Each floor 1 monster gives like 30 exp at most, and most mid-level monsters give 100-300. The game is forcing me deeper. I'm well over 100M total exp now, and over 51M with paladin alone. Still sitting pretty with my Lightning Blade, but no new armor upgrades since my last post. I *do* have 499 defense, though, so that's something? A lot of deeper monsters have decent odds to hit me, but at least I'm not getting nailed every time they swing anymore. I also don't know if I'm just getting lucky, but several times I've been "critically hit" by Lamurian Guards for... 3 damage. And the breath and spit attacks of lower level monsters seem to flat-out be doing less damage than they used to.

I'm getting sick of being drained, though. Vampires and Liches are a real pain. One run was cut short because I lost 2 points of Con and couldn't wield my Lightning Blade anymore! I bit the bullet and started casting Drain resistance on myself again. It's only 3 SP, but it still feels like a waste when I'm only getting 5% from it. It's still important, though - I'm running out of tomes of endurance and potions of fitness, and even my Aards of Being have started being drained. Well, except for the evil-aligned ones, the store is still maxed out on those ok.gif

Carrying loose consumables is also starting to cause problems. Particularly in regards to the Master of Shadows, Master Thieves and even the occasional Red-Cloaked Thief. I've lost a few Spheres of Dislocation and Elixirs of Fate to their grubby paws, and I'm just hoping they don't pry my 90+ use Crystal of Restoration away from me. I need my extra healing if I'm going to spend more than just a handful of encounters down on 15!

I *did* find a Dragon King, though, but he only had a silver cloak. I also have encountered 2-3 more Pariahs, but they all just had evil laughs. Literally EVERY ITEM DROP from Pariahs so far has been an Evil Laugh. I suppose I should be grateful it wasn't something worse, like a Curse of Morash, but this is 4 in a row now. blink.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 14 2019, 06:17 PM

That's a lot of paladin levels! Quite impressive.

Are you just leveling paladin more because you get to wear better gear in the paladin guild?

15 can be rough for sure. My solo osiri had about 100 more defense than you did and still would get killed by gargantuans, destroyer of the deep, etc., if I was unlucky or slow on the draw.

Do you use companions a lot? They felt like the only thing keeping my good human doing well down there or else k got hit way too much by random stuff like assassin's and guardsmen and I would get worn down even when not facing truly dangerous enemies.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 14 2019, 10:40 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 14 2019, 12:17 PM) *
That's a lot of paladin levels! Quite impressive.

Are you just leveling paladin more because you get to wear better gear in the paladin guild?

15 can be rough for sure. My solo osiri had about 100 more defense than you did and still would get killed by gargantuans, destroyer of the deep, etc., if I was unlucky or slow on the draw.

Do you use companions a lot? They felt like the only thing keeping my good human doing well down there or else k got hit way too much by random stuff like assassin's and guardsmen and I would get worn down even when not facing truly dangerous enemies.


Primarily I'm leveling because I get my second bonus swing from Paladin at 498. After that it really just becomes "I have better A/D gear on Paladin than on Sorcerer," plus the Lightning Blade is just *such* a useful tool to have on hand. If I find Mage Armor, though, I'm definitely switching over to Sorc as my primary, as the Staff of Destruction is a better weapon than the lightning blade (though I still need about 20 sorc levels before I can use it).

I need to get used to grabbing and using companions more regularly. I think I've stopped on that because I have the power to kill most groups with a single EF (and I'm constantly worrying about them either dying to an enemy wizard, dragon or lava giant or just leaving me for no good reason), but some decent companions *might* make my life a bit easier. I never feel like they actually survive long enough to make that big of a difference, though anything to keep off a random 350-damage Gargantuan hit or a drain from a Vampire before I can even react would be nice.

I've started a dedicated search for the final boss. I think this is what Mordor Monday is going to transition into. It takes me a good 2 runs to be able to hit every stud room on 15, and that adds up to around 30 minutes once I factor in the lag caused by recording and the like. I also want to catch my initial reactions to actually seeing Asmo or the Demon Prince on-camera - and the inevitable death that is likely to follow.
Video at https://youtu.be/QeOhUboExto

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 14 2019, 10:58 PM

Haha, sounds fun.

I used companions as expendable meat shields. I'd charm stuff like spectral dragons or lamurian guards when I could hit a stack of 3-4 to end a battle, then would just carry them around until they were all dead and repeat. Even lamurian soldiers can take quite a few hits to help reduce your damage taken or avoid certain death if you mess up a gargantuan fight. And guards/soldiers are always easy to find on 14 before you step down onto 15.

They actually contribute a lot of damage if you get breathers or electrocuters (or casters, but they die fast). They eat exp but help you clear more rooms per trip and are a net gain imo. I'd never try to keep them alive unless I was about to return to town and had spare sp to try to carry them through to the next trip.

Posted by: Roland Oct 15 2019, 07:36 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Oct 14 2019, 06:58 PM) *
I'd never try to keep them alive unless I was about to return to town and had spare sp to try to carry them through to the next trip.

With my high-level party, my Gnome usually keeps Lamurian Guards and Golden Eagles as companions. They have enough hits and defense that it's not too much trouble to keep them alive (as long as I don't encounter Magi Lord). But I keep them at the back of the party, where they don't get targeted as often. The Gnome's spell points are dedicated almost entirely to healing and rebinding his companions, which is not a problem since I have a Healer with enough spell points to cover the whole party's healing needs.

With my solo Morloch, however, I find that it's a lot harder to keep companions alive. My experiment with a Guardian, which has the highest defense of any charmable monster in the game, was not satisfactory. He ate up a lot of healing spells. As I run deeper I'll probably try using disposable companions.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 17 2019, 03:41 AM

Yeah, companions are definitely expendables for a solo character. Though admittedly helpful ones!

Had time to do another trek through the stud rooms of 15. Here are the results: https://youtu.be/6LiO6QIeuOw

- Met my first Mind Flayer. Do these things do anything outside of spam Precog? I feel like the ideal companions to take them down are, funnily enough, insects because of Mind immunity. Took a lot of charm spells to eventually throw enough at the thing for it to die, and my only reward was Gloves of Power. dry.gif

- Flame Devils hurt. A lot. I walk in, they always get initiative and hit for a few hundred, so fast that I can't even read what they have. I assume it's the most powerful fire breath weapon in the game as well, though it also could just be them all critting me at the same time. Whatever the case may be, I'm lucky if my Lightning Blade kills them all in a single round, but the debate that goes on in your head in the half a second you have to react is as follows - if you run, you will get hit by them all again. If you fight, you *might* kill them all, but if you don't you're getting hit. And if you DO fight, you need to be fast enough to hit the right buffer, or you're essentially wasting an entire combat round.

- The only other things I feel actively threatened by are Gargantuans, Golden Eagles and Great Whites. Everything else will hurt if it hits, but my defense is high enough that they aren't likely to hit every time, and even if they do it's not like it's going to be 3-4 groups all hitting for several hundred points of damage. At this point I've basically stopped attacking most neutral monsters unless I feel like they will die quickly or if they have a chest, because I just don't want to waste my resources for the fights that really matter. Plus my 27 Charisma is enough to keep most neutral mobs neutral for as long as necessary. I've DEFINITELY felt the pain of losing even 1 point of Charisma, though, as that seems to make every neutral mob turn on me within a few seconds.

Another thing I've been wondering - does having multiple monsters in a single group increase that group's odds to hit? I figure that the game keeps track of that somehow, since you get the whole "X monsters hit for Y" or the like, but does it affect their accuracy or just the damage they can potentially deal? Groups of monsters seem to be handled in an interesting way.

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 17 2019, 03:43 PM

I think that...

Up to 5 monsters per group will make attacks on you each round, but no more than that. If a monster in a group casts a spell, that's all that happens from that group; you don't get hit with multiple spells or with a spell and melee from the same group. I'm not sure how whether a breath weapon or electrocute happens (you still only get one of these per group max) is increased by having more monsters in the group so that like, if one makes a melee attack but doesnt trigger breath/electrocute/whatever, the other melee attacks coming in CAN still trigger those.

The formulas section of the spoilers on the wiki has info about combat order and stuff if you want to check that out.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 17 2019, 04:21 PM

Well, looking at the formulas didn't help with my question about groups, but it *did* help clarify some of the following:

- I should theoretically have a 50/50 chance of having initiative priority against Flame Devils, because of a Dex tie.
- The to-hit formula seems to tell me that even though, for instance Gargantuans have 600 attack to my 499 defense, they still only have a 58.4167% chance to hit. A ghoul, by comparison, should have a roughly 23.046% chance to hit, and a slave hits minimum.
***Though by an odd effect, the negative value of the Slave's attack means that it is actually BETTER to have a lower defense against it. It will never reach more than minimum hit chance by nature of the game bottoming-out at 2%, but it's funny how the game creates a sort of inverse-effectiveness of armor against the weakest monster in the game.
- Breath weapons, acid spits, etc. *are* indeed doing less damage because of my higher raw level. ok.gif
- I'm saddened that I don't have Wabbit's Editor to actually glean hidden monster stats from the game, since a lot of formulas are useless without those values.
- Paralyze chance is based on a flat 100, not scaled to monsters, and the calculation adds resistance to constitution with minimum 5% chance, so casting paralyze resistance over my own item-based resistance is completely redundant (unless my Constitution is somehow below 5).
- The formulas for drain, stoning, poison and disease are unclear with whether the "check against resistance" is really a 100-res chance or if it is based on the monster strength.

If what you say is true, and up to 5 monsters per group attack, then that seems like a pretty fair way of explaining why groups of monsters hit more - they are literally just rolling multiple attacks that just so happen to be added up in the same "hit" because each group randomly targets one player and/or their companions.

Posted by: fischsemmel Oct 17 2019, 05:08 PM

I think initiative is per monster though. I have no proof but it feels right to me. I basically never walk in on 4 groups of hostiles and get swung at by all of them. But it's also rare to walk in on large groups even if they have low dex and none of them have a surprise round on you.

If I'm right then it's very unlikely you'll be able to walk in on flame devils without getting breathed on at least once.

Posted by: Roland Oct 17 2019, 07:00 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Oct 16 2019, 11:41 PM) *
- Flame Devils hurt. A lot. I walk in, they always get initiative and hit for a few hundred, so fast that I can't even read what they have. I assume it's the most powerful fire breath weapon in the game as well, though it also could just be them all critting me at the same time. Whatever the case may be, I'm lucky if my Lightning Blade kills them all in a single round, but the debate that goes on in your head in the half a second you have to react is as follows - if you run, you will get hit by them all again. If you fight, you *might* kill them all, but if you don't you're getting hit. And if you DO fight, you need to be fast enough to hit the right buffer, or you're essentially wasting an entire combat round.

Flame Devils have 50% electrical resistance, so the Lightning Blade is unlikely to kill them all. They have no resistance to cold or paralysis. As for special attacks, they can breathe fire.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Oct 25 2019, 02:53 PM

Lightning Blade might not be the most consistent option, but it's still one of the best I have. ParDeath is still too low regular damage for me to believe in it (though it does a good job of taking out guardsmen), and Arctic Storm isn't on my regular buffers since it's so expensive for what it actually can do.

I haven't been able to play too much Mordor recently, though I did take my Paladin level up to around 475. I'm starting to run out of sashes, to be honest - I have plenty of Static ones in my bank, but I just used up the last of my Magenta. As for other items, I've found some duplicates of stuff I already have - Gauntlets of Slaying, Belt of Giant Strength, etc - but the only exciting find I've had is a Cap of Death. It's not much, but 5 charges of WoD at 190 should be a solid panic-button, though the Mithril Helm is so much better of a base item (plus I *really* don't want the cap to get slimed) that I'm leaving it in my bank, and only going to run and grab it when I find something that necessitates its use diablo.gif

I kind of want to find more Lightning Blades, if only to reduce the cost of recharging it. As it is now, it costs about 80M to recharge, after I factor in the sale value of 100M, so I'm trying not to burn through it too quickly. I've only had to recharge twice, and I *do* have over 3.5 Billion in the bank, but if I'm not too careful that could start draining pretty quickly.

In other news, I've found that Genies are probably the best minions to find to kill Mind Twisters. They're relatively easy to find, don't need to be weakened to be charmed, and are completely mind immune, plus monster spells bypass the Magic Immune tag. It only takes a handful of rounds for a genie or two to down a Mind Twister, and their WoD isn't bad against other monsters, either. Because of its low level, though, they aren't the most consistent, dealing around 80 to whatever monsters they choose to WoD, and not much in melee, so I need to take good care of them or they're liable to die against any strong encounter - especially vs enemy mages or breath weapons.

Casting drain resistance seems like it's helping - I've only got drained once in the last 10 or so levels as opposed to the regular affair it used to be. If I didn't know better from looking at the calculations I'd have started casting Paralysis Resistance as well, but since it's literally no different from having it from an item so long as my Con is at least 5+ then I'm saving my SP for more important things - like spamming EF yahoo.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Nov 5 2019, 05:11 PM

Life has gotten completely away from me. It's been almost a month since I've been able to record a new video (yet somehow I gain more subs when I do nothing than when I actively upload think.gif )

I have managed to poke around Mordor here and there. I brought my paladin level up to 485 - I know that 484 is the target level, but I kind of forgot and thought it was 498 or something so I would have kept leveling if it wasn't for me actually noticing I was swinging at 6 Orps instead of 5 every round blink.gif

I'm going back to Sorcerer leveling for now, and might stay there until 509 (max spell level). Honestly there's not too much more I can get from Paladin except for a minute increase in crit chance, and I'm not that interested in going all the way back to catch up my Mage or *shudder* Wizard. Mage is 175, Wizard is still below 100. And I have a Cap of Death, so it would be a HUGE dip for not much benefit to go back and grind either one out. Maybe in the future, if I want to make Gil'Thrialle the ultimate spellcaster, that could be her endgame goal.

I'm sitting up at age 80 right now, though. Been taking occasional deaths and aging attacks on floor 15, and while the draining has slowed since I started casting for the extra 5%, it still hits me. For some reason Wisdom is the stat of choice to be drained this week - I lost 1 Wisdom point three trips in a row O_o - luckily I haven't run out of Tomes of Insight, though I might have to start re-aligning them soon blink.gif

I'm around 320 Sorc now, and I can't WAIT for 333. Staff of Destruction is going to be SOOOOOOO nice - the vamp fang is just not doing it for me anymore. It occasionally fails to 1-shot Kyu-Hotas! That said, another part of the problem could be that I have only 27 str with my Sorcerer equipment, compared to 31 with my Paladin. I could probably increase that to 28 by changing out my Gloves of Doom for Gloves of Power, but eh :shrug: I like the extra defense they provide - especially when I'm dealing with 466 Def compared to the 499 I was getting used to as a Paladin.

Posted by: Roland Nov 5 2019, 09:13 PM

Congrats on Paladin 485! Advancing further in Paladin would also increase your regular damage, not just your crit damage. I don't think either one tops out. But I agree you have higher priorities now that you got your second extra swing.

When you return to the Sorcerer Guild, your defense will take a bigger dip than you might expect. Protection is based on your level in your current guild. So, be careful until you get the defense boost from Staff of Destruction.

If you are going to remain in Sorcerer for a long time, you might want to consider equipping Dalyn's Last Laugh, which gives +1 to all stats. Among other things, it would boost your strength to 28, which would bump you to the next damage level.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Nov 7 2019, 05:06 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Nov 5 2019, 02:13 PM) *
Congrats on Paladin 485! Advancing further in Paladin would also increase your regular damage, not just your crit damage. I don't think either one tops out. But I agree you have higher priorities now that you got your second extra swing.

When you return to the Sorcerer Guild, your defense will take a bigger dip than you might expect. Protection is based on your level in your current guild. So, be careful until you get the defense boost from Staff of Destruction.

If you are going to remain in Sorcerer for a long time, you might want to consider equipping Dalyn's Last Laugh, which gives +1 to all stats. Among other things, it would boost your strength to 28, which would bump you to the next damage level.



Interesting use of the item. If I find another one I might consider it (though losing Dalyn's Tear is painful). Like I said, I'm also considering switching my gloves back to Gloves of Power to hit that 28 breakpoint, though I don't want to lose those 12+ defense points because SERIOUSLY I'm getting shredded over losing 30 points of visible defense and 160 guild levels of Protection defense. Plus not having the free 12 casts of Minor Heal every trip is like 600 hp I don't have anymore.

I'll give Mordor this - it somehow found a way to make me feel more like a spellcaster when I'm leveling in a spellcasting guild even with almost 500 paladin levels under my belt - lower base damage and not as much free healing means I'm relying on my spells a lot more to kill stuff, both to make up for lost damage as well as to kill faster so I don't get hit as much.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Nov 9 2019, 11:04 PM

After too long, here's finally a new video! https://youtu.be/kHS9yvLjPmQ

Really not much to say after my last update. Apparently the A/D I was thinking of before was when I had gloves of power instead of gloves of doom, because my actual visible defense is 478.
Sorc leveling isn't slow going per-se, but I'm just not able to make it very deep. Everything hits so hard and I don't have the melee power to actually fight anything. Also, while Pillar of Fire is... alright? I find myself really missing the 12 free casts of Minor Heal. I can barely find a way to make it down to floor 14, let alone 15, and with how fast my dungeon respawns I'm basically starting at square one every time I do a full run. Everything except for floor 12 and below respawns in the time it takes me to do one full run, which isn't too bad except it's pretty annoying, especially trying to fight back through floor 10 enemies all the time. Part of me wants to just run past everything and forget about it, but when I'm recording that's just not an option, because the extra processing delay means everything is hitting me twice before I can get through its room.

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