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> A Fresh Party or "a mod should probably condense my gameplay threads into one"
BLauritson
post Sep 11 2019, 08:19 PM
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Likewise on a vanilla install I've seen the occasional odd mashup of creatures like that, but I've no idea either what causes it.

That too was with a solo character so it doesn't look like party composition has any influence.


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fischsemmel
post Sep 12 2019, 10:41 AM
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I've cautiously killed the minotaur and the butcher now. Butcher went down like a sack of potatoes when I buffered WoD on my healer, laugh.gif

After not seeing any giant leeches for like 2 days, I saw (and acid sprayed down) a few groups recently. They hardly scratch me. I also ran into zbrats on level 7, and while it was just 2 groups of them, I engaged then in melee for 2 rounds before realizing they weren't weaponists+numanogs (it was in a foggy room), and only took like 50-70 damage on 2 of my guys. They also died asap to my two sorcerer's firing acidic sprays.

Traps are less annoying for my 60 thief (with 32 dex!) than my solo human at 150 scavenger.

I'm sorely tempted to explore deeper, but I keep reminding myself I'm trying to not die! I've explored most of 6 and half of 7 though, and am still just working on securing sorcerer and healer crests before I return all my dudes to combat guilds to increase a/d and melee prowess. Well, and item use! If I find an avenger or a mystic shield, j won't even be able to use them for like 80+ levels. laugh.gif
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MythrilZenith
post Sep 12 2019, 04:04 PM
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Parties with solid defense can do a LOT. But you're still only as durable as your weakest member. I tried making a party with a gnome mage/villain, but because gnomes cannot access Warrior OR Wizard he ended up being a few hundred hp behind my dwarves and human. And somehow he also was the person who always got alpha-struck by tough mobs.

It's also interesting to note just how much you can get away with not using spellcasting items in parties. As a solo character I've begun to use them all the time - even deliberately carrying around a Rod of Ultimate Power just for clearing out things like Zbrats or piranhas. In a party, though, you don't need to spend SP to kill most normal mobs, so you can reserve most of your SP for panic buttons or movement. Casting resistances and the like does cost more, though, and a random teleporter will split you up instead of just taking you somewhere else, often necessitating a series of displacement casts as your individual members are unlikely to be strong enough to survive in the depths they can survive at as a party. (My first excursion to floor 11 with a party ended in tragedy as I hit a random teleporter and everyone died alone. This was on the install before my current one, so I had nothing). So that's a different drain on your SP that a single player doesn't necessarily have.


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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fischsemmel
post Sep 13 2019, 03:43 PM
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I'm still plugging away at warrior and seeker levels currently. Warriors are nearing extra swing, seeker is nearing his crest. I'll swap the warriors to their casting guilds after they hit 91 for a while, and the seeker back to thief aiming to vastly improve my trap disarming.

A bit ago I went on a quick adventure down to 9 to kill the vampire there. All I needed to do differently than when I earn exp on 6-7 was add magic and mental resist buffs and go to town. I even saw a full 4 groups of zbrats and a lone ninja, but again, they go down easy to a full group. My dudes defenses are around 200-220 right now, which is like 100 lower than my soloers would be on these levels... laugh.gif

Granted, some terrible luck could be trouble. A ninja severing the same guy in a surprise round and when I try to back out of the room could kill him. But with 4 targets to pick from and over 400 hits each now, I'm still more worried about an unlucky encounter with a mostrum or whatever!

My melee damage has been carrying me along so far except for "named" monsters where I'll use 3-4 spells varying between acid spray, summon shade, electric field, word of death, and precog death, depending on what I'm walking in on. While expensive, everyone can cast WoD and PD from their 41 wizard levels, and I have 2 sorcerers, so I've got all the damage types covered. Really though the stuff I am basically just farming is trivial: butcher, hooded thief, demonist, and now vampire. When all 3 of my warriors get their extra swing soon, I think it'll get a bit silly cleaving down stuff on 7, which will probably push me deeper so I don't get too awfully bored.

It's nuts the longevity of a full party in the dungeon compared to my solo human. Part of it is the human was good, so he wasn't a healer or thief, but still... It's nuts. I often pin my whole party and still have a combined 400 spell points left. I've even got SP to spare on ethereal portals, or on soul search and displacement when my thief ocassionally botches a teleport trap, which is so amazingly convenient compared to walking EVERYWHERE with solos to conserve their precious few SP. I'm still refusing to use displacement or teleport for general convenience though, to ensure no rocking deaths!

Leveling speed isn't bothering me since I get levels on everyone every trip, but it is a bit annoying to keep finding avengers and mystic shields and stuff that I still can't use for 40-90 more levels! I suspect I'll be on level 11 farming exp in the water there before I can use all the gear I've been getting on 7. Heh.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Sep 13 2019, 03:47 PM
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fischsemmel
post Sep 14 2019, 04:02 AM
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Omfg.

Ive been quested for a swashbuckler in seeker all day, which has stopped me from being the guildmaster. I figured I'd work on grinding thief levels up with this dude up front, visiting 7 but mostly 3-5 looking for a swashy.

I found one just now. Stepped out of the room to wound him with shock so as to not risk killing him, then soul entrap him.


Went back into room... and it had ticked to midnight. My swashbuckler had been replaced by kalmeons.

not_ok.gif
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fischsemmel
post Sep 14 2019, 07:27 PM
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Yay, I found another swashbuckler (my 7th total seen but only 2nd in last 4 days) near the dwarven lord, whittled him down slowly with summon shade to be sure I didn't kill him, and snagged him with soul entrap. That guy is now 78 seeker, 95 thief, 66 healer (1 from overtaking my other healer for his crest).

My sorcerers are both in the 70s, mage still only at like 45. I'm planning to keep exping on 7 mostly, but also finish exploring 8-9, while I get sorcerers up to minimum buff costs, get a mage crest, and then work on warrior and thief levels more as I dip my toes in the water on 10.

I'm meleeing zbrats down now, so it's probably about time I see ninjas more regularly. All the breathing and electrocuting monsters on 10+ will slow me down via attrition though, both by forcing me to spend more sp on buffs and by doing boatloads of damage ... though I assume it'll be better than solo since I can kill them off faster without needing a defcon 1 nuke to do it.

Silent eagles and master ninjas on 11 are... Scary. Way too much to face without another 50+ levels and new gear. But I'm on my way! I've been kinda working on stocking rare items and creatures to avoid slowdowns with quests, cause having to go back to 3-4 to look for something I need when I want to be on 7-9 is a huge pain!
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fischsemmel
post Sep 15 2019, 02:11 PM
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Killed me a giant king this morning, and he dropped his hammer that I can't use for like 70 levels. He was tougher than expected. He didn't hit me hard but I ran out of sp and was meleeing him, laugh.gif. I guess I really do need more levels in mage and wizard before I use precog death much more.

The other stuff on 10 that are banes of my existence solo were easy peasy. Phantasmal mists, frost bears, fire giants, no worries, meleed right down. I only was using 3x adamantine daggers too on a lot of the floor since my dwarf has been swinging a dominator (oh yeah, I forgot to mention I found one a few days ago) but it hits resistance issues on 10.

I still havent quite finished exploring 8-9, by I'm getting a bit done each trip after I clear 7 lake and the 3 special monsters there, plus vampire on 9 (still no fang yet).

I'm really looking forward to finishing sorcerer and thief up for now and pounding out fighting-guild levels up to 150ish! 5 more this levels for 110 and mithril dagger, and 15ish more for sorcerer minimum buff costs.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Sep 15 2019, 02:14 PM
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MythrilZenith
post Sep 15 2019, 07:59 PM
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Goodness, I'd forgotten just how much more you can survive in a group of 4 compared to a solo character. Just hearing the way you've described everything makes me remember the first group I had that went to floor 10 - Only around level 100 or so in their main guilds, but able to do SO much more. I didn't even have that good of equipment on them - I think the most valuable piece of equipment I had (and could use) at the time was a Cross of Commanding from the Demonist, which makes killing the Vampire on 9 incredibly easy. Never did find a fang on that group, though.

Now I'm really tempted to just power-level a solid Thief and a Giant. If Gil'Thrialle (my elf) was in a party of 2 or 3 I have almost no doubt she would be able to survive (and even thrive) on 14 and 15 without issue. Heck, one of my biggest issues right now is just flat carrying capacity - with all my carried items for spells and whatnot, I only have just over a dozen slots for new items from the dungeon!


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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fischsemmel
post Sep 16 2019, 04:39 PM
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Im on a roll now!

I've finished exploring 1-10. I've explored all of the lake on 11 plus paths to the stairs. I've gone down to mother of serpents, but all I found was 3 lousy crystal spiders. I just pinned all 4 guys as warriors&seeker on level 10-11 and still had a combined 400ish SP left after fully healing at town. All my guys are up near 500 hits now. My main healer has minimum heal cost. Oh yeah, baby sneaky.gif

Thieves and traps on 11 are brutal for my 118 thief though, especially when he isn't actually active in the thief guild and therefore has 5 lower dex. But I'm currently resolved go blast through warrior and seeker levels. It looks like seeker 144 is a bit of a break point in a/d gain, but that's a long, long way from the 80-something he is now. My warriors would probably get up near 200 by the time the seeker gets to 144. We'll see how things feel after the warriors hit 131 and can all start swinging their avengers before I am sure if I'll keep grinding these guilds or if I'll swap back into others sooner than later.

Regardless though, as much as I love putting my thief in the back so melee resolves lightning fast and dungeon crawls are more like dungeon runs, I think my thief will be spending time up front to help him earn more exp. It's proving harder than I expected to keep thief, seeker, and secondary healer all where I want them as an osirri!

If I do manage to get a boatload of warrior&seeker levels before anything else, at least I'll be able to use vampire fangs when I switch back to casting guilds... though I've still yet to see a vampire fang from 15-20 vampire kills.

edit - ooh, and then when I went back and did catch a MoS skulking in her little hideaway, she dropped a dragon's blood potion! My guys are all 21-23 at the moment, the thief being the oldest because of failed withering traps. I'll probably save it to use on the humans though.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Sep 16 2019, 05:26 PM
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fischsemmel
post Yesterday, 02:01 PM
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I played a ton, even by my standards, yesterday. I got my seeker up to 119, and my warriors are at 131, 145, and 147. I haven't explored anything new, just still mixing it up between 7, 11, and a bit of 9-10 for levels between MoS and vampire kills.

I found one vampire fang now, at least! I almost switched to casting guilds but I know with how much I like to melee, I should stick with these guilds till that 144 seeker I initially planned on. Then it'll be a thief, a healer, and 2x sorcerers for levels!

I've also found a ring of entrapment to go along with my dominator and MoS dragons blood as rare finds. I also met my first pack of silent eagles on 11 (a full 4 groups, too); they did about 200 damage to my front man before I ran out of the room, healed up, and came back in with 2x WoD and 2x EF, which killed all but two singles in #3 and #4 that I then meleed down.

I really regret not making 3 neutrals and 1 good. Since I'm always selected on my thief for defense against monster thieves and high dex meaning I don't get surprised as often, he's basically the only guy I can consistently hit a buffer panic button on when I walk in on some stoning mythicals or instadeath stuff (or later, aging monsters). But my thief is already hard pressed to keep up in seeker and thief... he's just a backup healer. And exp gets spread around a lot in the party. WoD is an expensive way to kill a few mostrums, and won't hit hard enough to kill master ninjas (let alone gargantuans) for ages and ages, and he doesn't have a 2nd damage type nuke, and leprosy isn't enough to do anything. If he were seeker+thief+sorc, and I had two other neutrals to be healers, I'd be happier, though I'd still be stretched hard to get the thief enough exp to make EF and paralyzing death good enough.

So far the only way I deal with panic situations is running out of the room so I can set buffers on everyone. But I don't like doing thst because it gives monsters a chance to hit me on the way out the door. But i'm sure I can't with ANY consistency shift+x n shift+x n shift+x before combat starts either. Hmmmm.


This is my longest game without a death ever (65 hours now!), so I keep trying to put extra thought into how to keep this going. I thought about memorizing all the mythical rooms (it wouldn't be TOO bad I don't think) to avoid them since I have cheap ethereal portals now, but it's not like I'm going to NOT look for pariahs starting pretty soon here... so meh.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Yesterday, 02:06 PM
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MythrilZenith
post Yesterday, 02:19 PM
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The party buffer problem is real. You want your thief selected in the back to speed fights, take initiative, avoid counter-thievery and get exp from unlocking chests, but if they're leveling enough in thief to DO all that effectively then they aren't likely to be leveled enough in a spellcasting class to make effective use of their spell points to be a good "panic button" caster.

My old setup, which also struggled in this, was Warrior/Healer in front, villain/mage second, ninja/sorc third, and warrior/thief 4th. Healer needing by far the most exp, and the one with the easiest spell to gather that exp (I would switch to them when perusing lakes, for instance, so I could Leprosy first and have the melee clean up). But if I ever hit any problematic mobs it would take me awhile to N-through my party and switch them to buffers. At least one round of combat, if not two. I ended up keeping generally useful spellcasting items on my thief (ring of frost, rod of UP) and then just using them on easy panic button buffers.
What DEFINITELY didn't help was that my game likes to lag when doing anything that changes the screen. Particularly when changing automap, but sometimes changing characters can cause issues as well (closing certain tabs that auto-update, like the resistances display bar across the top, helps a bit). So N'ing through a group, which should ideally only be limited by my typing speed, is them limited by how fast my computer decides to recognize the inputs, which means some of them inevitably get dropped, and I have random people stuck fighting or casting the wrong buffer.

That said, that party never made it deeper than 9 or 10 (though they could have if I wanted to push them, they were still pinning before I really got that deep and I curtailed their leveling to allow my solo Elf to pick up the appropriate crests and just never really went back). And it really is only around those levels or later that the TRUE panic-button mobs come up - the ones which really can't be dealt with in melee.

This makes me somewhat rethink my plan to just make a giant and a thief - a healer is REALLY important, and is arguably one of the best classes in the entire game. Healer, Thief and Warrior are clearly the hard carries in their respective fields, but while Warrior can be mostly replaced (just at a slower rate), thief really can't be beaten in trap disarming, and Healer is the only one with Restoration access, Caduceus use, gets Leprosy for mid-game, and gets WoD for late-game (at the best rate, too). They're insanely good.

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Yesterday, 02:23 PM


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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fischsemmel
post Yesterday, 03:04 PM
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Yeah, they're definitely the most powerful guilds. Though I did settle into my solo mage and did not miss thief or healer with him. It just required a big change in play from how you can play when you've got 50% better disarms and 100% better healing.

I'll try to solve my issue by still having thief selected of course, but leaving him up front and returning to town right away any time he pins. He will run ahead of everyone else in exp (he's already like 8m vs everyone else at 5-6)... but he'll have higher defense to take hits (especially when I get some blessings), good thieving of course, and hopefully passable healer levels for panic nukes.

3 warriors' worth of melee swings behind a WoD is no joke, really, so long as it isn't a pack of gargantuans or golden eagles that should be plenty to clear out the kinda-scary monster groups.
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Roland
post Yesterday, 09:48 PM
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I always keep my Seeker/Thief/Sorc at the front of the party and selected. You want the Seeker in front - otherwise his high perception does nothing for you. And obviously you want the high-dex character selected for initiative purposes. And Sorc has the best panic spells. So the combination works well. The Warrior/Healer and Paladin/Mage behind him are set to auto-fight. If I need their spells, I back out of the room and re-set their defaults. (The only problem with that is that sometimes I forget to set them back to auto-fight afterwards.)

The main problem with the three-guild char is that he will always run behind in at least one guild - in my case Thief. But it wasn't as bad as it could have been because that char had a big head start on the other two - I didn't start them until I had amassed enough tomes to max their con.

I'm not sure why you would need more than one Healer or Sorcerer in a party. But an extra Warrior can never hurt. One guy who used to participate in this forum had a party that consisted of three Giant Warriors one Dwarf or Osiri who covered all the other necessary guilds. In most encounters, he would just let the three Giants auto-fight, reserving his spells for tough encounters and opening boxes.

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fischsemmel
post Yesterday, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 17 2019, 05:48 PM) *
I'm not sure why you would need more than one Healer or Sorcerer in a party.


I like being able to spread buffing and healing costs around, especially once I'm visiting 14-15 and/or need 1.5+ million exp to fully pin my party. It's a big drain on a party's only source of acidic spray and electric field if he is buffing 4 people (including 2 humans) and rebuffing after blackouts, etc, in addition to charm of opening and panic nukes.

Having all 4 characters able to fire off a badass spell on a nasty fight is great also, and I will likely see those fights before I have (and can use) the powerful spellcasting items like lightning sword and cap of death.

Also, having multiple guilds to work on with each character helps me not have to forfeit quests (or sit pinned for hours waiting to find what I need) since I can bounce between guilds as needed to always be earning exp.

This post has been edited by fischsemmel: Yesterday, 10:48 PM
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