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Braindead's Mordor Site - Return to Mordor: The Depths Of Dejenol _ General Discussion _ Solo good human

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 2 2019, 11:40 AM

Well I'm back at Mordor again, and after a day of playing a full party, i decided to try soloing a good human (with mage emphasis, I guess, I've never really played mage much).

I wasn't too sure how to approach the earliest levels. I was a bit concerned about age since I'm a human and won't have thief to (fully) reduce damage taken and withering, and I won't have healer to make it easier to top off before taking the stairs. But I ended up taking stats to get into sorcerer right away.

I started working up nomad levels with shock, since my 6-strength bronze sword was not very effective... laugh.gif. It was slow going for a while but once I got nomad up into the teens I had enough hp that a bit of damage barely aged me when I went to town, and my sorc spells were letting me work through the first floor pretty well.

I got stuck with some rough quests and against my usual wishes I had to forfeit one (robe of insight at like 25 nomad). Oh well. It didn't even help my hits cause I'm ignoring the OLP since grinding that many tomes of endurance at level 1-5 drives me bonkers. And I'll be so high level eventually anyway that I'll hit 999 hp besides.

After 4 hours or so I've gotten nomad to 30, sorc in the 24ish range, and I decided to add mage, which is now at 15, to start getting minor heal action in.


I haven't been too annoyed at no CoO yet, but scavenger is next on my list even though it'll need like 30 levels before it's cheap enough to use without lots of town trips to reset mana.

Long term, I'm envisioning lots of warrior, LOTS of scavenger, and quite a bit of mage and sorc, with a dip into seeker for some basic exploration skills. I'm hoping the lower xp requirement as a human will basically make warrior a "free" guild compared to my other idea of gnome, which would have been leveling in seeker for melee potential.


Gotta run, more to come later!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 2 2019, 06:22 PM

Another soloist, but it sounds like on a fresh install? Good luck!

The biggest weakness of the Good alignment is lack of access to Thief and Healer. Charm of Opening takes a lot more levels to get to minimum cost for Scavenger, and 6 minimum cost feels a lot worse than 3.

That said, a human would be able to access the Warrior and Ninja classes, which could make soloing with melee attacks at least somewhat reasonable until lower depths. The fighting skill of the Warrior class in particular is leagues better than any other class (and is probably the biggest thing I miss about my Elf), although the raw A/D of Nomad is still effective.

You might think the OLR is overrated when you're going to be leveling so high anyway, but it REALLY helps you survive as a solo character. Especially if you start leveling in multiple classes, you're going to start hitting a point where you do a ton of leveling and don't get much HP for it. I guess it's not strictly necessary, but it is really helpful.

Your leveling is going to be really fast as a Human, but you're gonna need to be really careful about aging, especially without a helpful healer - that resting at town is gonna add up FAST, and any death is going to have a not-insignificant risk of complications. Getting to Dragon's Blood quickly is gonna be really important, and you'll want to be as fresh as you can once you start hitting Age-attacking monsters.


I also agree - starting with a fresh level 1 after you're used to level 200+ characters is a real shock to the system. Half the time my fresh recruits die to the first kobold they see! laugh.gif


I'm excited to see how things go for you! Humans are my favorite race to play generally because of the faster leveling speed, but doing a solo does sound like it could get rough going into the bottom third of the dungeon.

Posted by: Roland Jul 2 2019, 07:16 PM

It looks like the big difference between your Good Human and my Evil Morloch is that my character is a legacy and yours is not. Otherwise, the same guilds, same strengths, same weaknesses. Eventually we're both going to have to figure out how to kill the Big Guy without the Big Spell.

If I were building a Human I might skip Warrior and Scavenger and go for Ninja instead. A Ninja's thieving skills are not that much worse than a Scavenger's (apart from COO cost), and a solo character would really benefit from the extra swings.

I am finding that I don't miss Healer that much. For a full party you really need a Healer, but for a solo char the Mage's healing ability plus healing items are more than adequate.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 2 2019, 07:20 PM

Yeah, I always do solo attempts fresh because I get bored grinding levels without it being the "full Mordor experience." Having the gear waiting for me and starting at max stats just kills the appeal for me.

Having solod the game with an osiri early this year (the thread is still front page I think), and tried several other times, I really do believe OLP is overrated as a survivability method. I don't fault anyone who uses it or think it's pointless, but the way I'm soloing Im not ever going to die because my max hits weren't enough so much as because I made a bad decision ("I'll just take one quick peek down onto 14! WCGW?!) or got stoned or rocked. Early insta-death encounters are no match for my defense by the time I face them. Later insta-death encounters aren't faced until I'm at max hits anyway. Meanwhile grinding con to 22+ without leveling much or at all is infuriating for me.

Having fun so far. I think I'm 19 is all, with mage, sorc, and scav all around 27 and now that I got into and wis high enough for IDs I've got enough gold for warrior and seeker whenever I am ready. I'm trying hard to do this with no deaths so age isn't a concern really, short of old age deaths!

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 2 2019, 07:27 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 2 2019, 03:16 PM) *
It looks like the big difference between your Good Human and my Evil Morloch is that my character is a legacy and yours is not. Otherwise, the same guilds, same strengths, same weaknesses. Eventually we're both going to have to figure out how to kill the Big Guy without the Big Spell.

If I were building a Human I might skip Warrior and Scavenger and go for Ninja instead. A Ninja's thieving skills are not that much worse than a Scavenger's (apart from COO cost), and a solo character would really benefit from the extra swings.

I am finding that I don't miss Healer that much. For a full party you really need a Healer, but for a solo char the Mage's healing ability plus healing items are more than adequate.


Hmm. I'm bummed enough about no thief already, I'm not sure I can convince myself to drop my thieving all the way down to ninja level... laugh.gif. Though I'll admit I hadn't realized ninja modifier was 7; I thought it was lower.

I'm not really worried about dying at all. My osirri beat the game without mage or warrior access OR a ring of entrapment. That's a significant difference in gear, guild defense, and extra targets for the Big Baddies to focus on instead of me.

Maintaining charms perpetually to shield against an inevitable stoning slipping past my resists sounds like it'll be taxing, though.


Your morloch looks fun. The low con scared me off (omg stoning), but everything else sure looks appealing for a non-neutral solo.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 2 2019, 10:54 PM

At this point I'm realizing just how slowly I grind out on this game compared to everyone else >.<

I guess if you've already done a solo character through to the end then you'll know a lot more than I do about the challenges that await! Still, it's cool to see others trying these solo build challenges, because it gives me a better sense of what to worry about going forward.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 2 2019, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 2 2019, 06:54 PM) *
At this point I'm realizing just how slowly I grind out on this game compared to everyone else >.<

I guess if you've already done a solo character through to the end then you'll know a lot more than I do about the challenges that await! Still, it's cool to see others trying these solo build challenges, because it gives me a better sense of what to worry about going forward.


Hah. I'm a bit of a ... uh ... binger? My free time activity du jour gets ALL of my free time until the next thing gets my attention (again).

Ice never gotten a "hardcore"/no death solo below like, dungeon level 8 though. So we'll see how long I make it before I need to reset and reevaluate.

The tldr with my osirri iirc, was patience. I didn't do optimal leveling, but I had a llloootttt of seeker and sorcerer and healer levels before I "won." I also had maybe 8-10 deaths iirc, albeit mostly from rocking and stoning. I farmed up 7 blessings I believe, before I got tired lf that character.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 3 2019, 04:47 PM

Aaaaand I died already. I fatfingered my way into the chute near the goblins on dungeon level 3 on my way back from the Lord, so I was already not in tiptop shape. I made it back to level 3 by defending and trying to dash to stairs through the unexplored floors, but as I neared the steps to 2 I ran into a room full of dwarves when j was getting precipitously low on hits and in a panic, a rotator led me into another pit and the dwarves did the last 4 hits before I could even hop out of it.

Shame. Shame. Shame. (You know. Shame on me for not using OLP because an extra 150 hits woulda meant I didn't die here. Hah! Note to self: suck it up and grind con times for a serious hardcore attempt.)

And thus ends my hardcore attempt. But I wasnt very optimistic anyway, so I'll be continuing to play this guy to completion regardless while trying to better my overall death count I had with my osirri earlier this year.


Currently at 9.3 hours, 21 years old, 30 nomad 26 warrior (quested for a dust of locating that I haven't even seen one of yet), 7 seeker, 27 scavenger, 32 mage, 27 sorc. Working on dropping minor heal cost a bit more then I'll probably work on lowering resist and acid spray costs and hope I find a dust of locating along the way. I was hoping to take warrior up high enough to supplant Crashland before I stopped it, but as I've said, I pretty much refuse to forfeit unless I'm pinned in everything I want more exp in smile.gif

Posted by: BLauritson Jul 3 2019, 06:29 PM

I suppose it's better to have such a death early on than to get very close to the end and fall at the last hurdle smile.gif

Good luck with your solo quest, I look forward to seeing how you get on with it.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 3 2019, 06:52 PM

I'm honestly more surprised that you were able to survive the chute at all with the levels you had :O The difficulty spike between floors 3 and 4 is a fairly big one. Makes sense considering the shareware version of the game capped out at floor 3 laugh.gif oh man good times, stepping onto that chute and having nothing happen because "that floor does not exist."

Yeah without OLR the raw HP of a solo character is gonna be really hard to get up, especially if you're pushing yourself to go deeper constantly. It's not downright necessary, but it does make surviving the early levels significantly easier. That said, if you're not running legacy it basically front-loads a lot of grinding, and the single-digit level period of a character is the absolute worst - I do NOT recommend trying to grind out tomes without leveling up, that just sounds like a form of masochistic torture even I wouldn't subject myself to.

You mentioned getting rocked on your other character? Were you playing around with displacement and missing inputs, or did you just Eth into a spot without checking for rock first? Either way, I'm half-terrified of messing up a displacement input so I rarely use the spell. Makes my dungeon running a bit more tedious but that's the price I pay for safety :shrug:

You aged all the way to 21 already? Wow, that hurts. I guess that's one reason for leveling a class with good healing spells - cutting back on age.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 3 2019, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 3 2019, 02:52 PM) *
I'm honestly more surprised that you were able to survive the chute at all with the levels you had :O The difficulty spike between floors 3 and 4 is a fairly big one. Makes sense considering the shareware version of the game capped out at floor 3 laugh.gif oh man good times, stepping onto that chute and having nothing happen because "that floor does not exist."

Yeah without OLR the raw HP of a solo character is gonna be really hard to get up, especially if you're pushing yourself to go deeper constantly. It's not downright necessary, but it does make surviving the early levels significantly easier. That said, if you're not running legacy it basically front-loads a lot of grinding, and the single-digit level period of a character is the absolute worst - I do NOT recommend trying to grind out tomes without leveling up, that just sounds like a form of masochistic torture even I wouldn't subject myself to.

You mentioned getting rocked on your other character? Were you playing around with displacement and missing inputs, or did you just Eth into a spot without checking for rock first? Either way, I'm half-terrified of messing up a displacement input so I rarely use the spell. Makes my dungeon running a bit more tedious but that's the price I pay for safety :shrug:

You aged all the way to 21 already? Wow, that hurts. I guess that's one reason for leveling a class with good healing spells - cutting back on age.


I don't mess up displacement often, though I tend to just use EP (not buffered) and fight my way around. Teleport gets me killed though eventually when I'm only visiting low levels and I use a set location I know is safe so I can just 0,0,-3 down. But I inevitably end up going down 3 from 13+ or up 3 from the stairs and dying in time. laugh.gif.

Being 21 already is mostly from 40-50 tomes.

Posted by: Roland Jul 3 2019, 07:06 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 2 2019, 03:27 PM) *
Maintaining charms perpetually to shield against an inevitable stoning slipping past my resists sounds like it'll be taxing, though.

Your morloch looks fun. The low con scared me off (omg stoning), but everything else sure looks appealing for a non-neutral solo.

I would not have attempted a non-legacy Morloch - I agree the low con would be prohibitive. The low cha is also annoying. As a human you will be able to cast Soul Entrapment. My Morloch can't cast it without two pieces of cha-boosting equipment.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 3 2019, 07:09 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 3 2019, 12:57 PM) *
I don't mess up displacement often, though I tend to just use EP (not buffered) and fight my way around. Teleport gets me killed though eventually when I'm only visiting low levels and I use a set location I know is safe so I can just 0,0,-3 down. But I inevitably end up going down 3 from 13+ or up 3 from the stairs and dying in time. laugh.gif.

Being 21 already is mostly from 40-50 tomes.


Oof, I know that feel. I don't know if I've ever used the Teleport spell and gotten the right Z-axis. I tried to rescue a party who fell down a chute and ended up hitting floor 12. I only had enough spell points across my party to do one more jump back up to 9. That party was only able to survive around floor 6 or 7 themselves so it was... an experience... navigating them out of this fresh hell they found themselves in, where half their weapons didn't work.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 4 2019, 10:40 AM

Yay, I'm a guildmaster! I overtook Sparrowhawk just a few minutes ago, which I'm pretty pumped about because so far I've only been in the 20s-30s for any one of my guilds and that stretches my spell points really thin every time I'm in the dungeon. 6-10 per buff when I need 3-4, 8+ per minor heal when I come back to town that I need to save for, any remotely-potent nuke costs 12-30, etc. But now at least I have the mage crest to use 6 times per dungeon trip, which will both help me deal more damage more quickly directly by charming stuff and indirectly through the charms I then have, but it'll also decrease the amount of damage I take a bit as my charms get targetted instead of me!

Too bad I'm pretty much due to leave the mage guild and work on my other ones at this point though, laugh.gif. I really need to bring down the cost of charm of opening and boost my thieving skills. I've been just sniping the goblin shaman+lord and the dwarven lord, and otherwise charging around 1 to open chests and fighting on 2 for experience. Traps and stealing enemies on 4 have been nasty. But of course I'm spread thin in other ways too, and more sorc levels to lower the costs of my resist buffs and boost the effectiveness of my nukes would be great too. Seeker can sit tight at least, since it gives such a load of perception just from that 1st level. Warrior is still on hold until I find a dust of locating despite this being the guild I'd like to level the most right now. If I get another 15-20 levels with sorc and scav and still haven't found one, I'll probably bite the bullet and forfeit so I can get warrior up to the point that I can start increasing my A/D again and do my exploring of new levels as a warrior for the best armor and weapon choices.

Edit - yeah! Having company is fun! I've basically never charmed anything cause I've never really used a mage much, and I've never found a ring of whatever that uses soul entrapment. I'm back to sorcerer for now though.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 6 2019, 01:22 PM

Last night I finally broke down, still having not seen a single dust of locating, and forfeited warrior back down to 23. But it was for the best, because i got a bunch of warrior levels very quickly fighting around on 4 and actually starting to go after twisted elf. I became guildmaster a few minutes ago, and am gaining a/d again, and I figure I'll keep with warrior until I get an extra swing at 91.

I'm already annoyed with scavenger. I want to level mage and sorc more (REALLY need cheaper resist buffs ... so many electrocutes a d breaths are showing up on 5 already), but I really need to keep scav as my highest guild probably in order to handle the traps I run into well. I'm anxious to work my way down to 7 so I can rack up levels in scav slaughtering those pesky water dwellers.

I ran into an annoying consequence of being good earlier. I was quested for a killart and I had one in confinement so j bought it to attack and recharm. Nope! My moral code doesn't permit me to turn on good companions! Plus I don't like lethal gauntlets. Maybe I shoulda gone evil!

Posted by: BLauritson Jul 6 2019, 04:04 PM

There's always the option of realigning a companion from the confinement - as far as I know you're not prevented from realigning a Good companion so that should help you work around that restriction smile.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 6 2019, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (BLauritson @ Jul 6 2019, 12:04 PM) *
There's always the option of realigning a companion from the confinement - as far as I know you're not prevented from realigning a Good companion so that should help you work around that restriction smile.gif


Life pro tip right here, laugh.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 6 2019, 11:40 PM

It was a productive (well... in Mordor. Less so in real life) day. I got up to 91 warrior smoothly, found a ring of opening and a ring of teleportation, and just did a quick few levels with scavenger to secure my third guildmaster crest.

50-90 warrior made such a big difference. I went from messing around on 3 and 4 and not pinning before returning to town to skipping my way down to 5 every trip and pinning with spell points to spare. The extra defense I picked up and significantly stronger melee attacks, even before adding an extra swing at 91, were working wonders. Unlocking delvars axe helps a lot too I think; those crits help me get a lot more 1-hit kills. My day's highlight was 2-shotting a giant slug, laugh.gif

I'm looking forward to cracking out 25-30 quick scav levels with great ease (6 free CoO per trip is so huge when it costs 20-some sp for me to actually cast still!). Hopefully at that point I'm + or (probably overly optimistic here) ++ on level 5 traps, and I'll get to revisit sorc to unseat Requnix!

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 7 2019, 11:22 PM

Oh cool, another ring. I wonder what this one is. Pretty expensive to ID! At least it isn't cursed or a ring of invis or something.

Ring. Of. Entrapment.

I played for hundreds of hours on my osiri looking for one of these damn things. I mapped out ring farm routes besides just visiting the twisted elf every half hour I possibly could. Never saw a one. Now I'm playing a character intended to be focused on being a mage... and already, I get this ring. laugh.gif

I know that it's only SL 90 compared to mage spell and crest going higher, but still. Come on. Where's the justice? Couldn't I have gotten an elven ring for this guy? Hahaha...


Anyway. 27 hours, just dethroned Requnix. 30 nomad, 91 warrior, 7 seeker, 91 scavenger, 57 mage, 63 sorc. 300 million gold, still just the one, dumb death. Probably will play with the sorcerer crest a bit down in 7's lake (and the butcher and demonist, who haven't coughed up anything decent yet and probably are a bit out of my league really... I still haven't even explored basically any of 6, heh) before I revisit mage to minimize minor heal cost.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 8 2019, 12:05 PM

Lame. I got an avenger (i think? It was "Sword" from the butcher) just now. Ran back to town cause he and the champions work me over even when I engage with companions. Go to ID the sword, and it's not in slot 18 like it said it was. Checked my combat log and no steal or destroyed messages are there. Wth?

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 8 2019, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 8 2019, 06:05 AM) *
Lame. I got an avenger (i think? It was "Sword" from the butcher) just now. Ran back to town cause he and the champions work me over even when I engage with companions. Go to ID the sword, and it's not in slot 18 like it said it was. Checked my combat log and no steal or destroyed messages are there. Wth?


No slime traps? Slime monsters? Thieves? Did you check your upper inv slots? Sometimes an item is either destroyed or taken from you for a quest without telling you. Usually it's mentioned if it's destroyed but if an equipped item is taken for a quest you get NO warning, and that may have left an open slot for you.

Aside from that... Yeah, not much else I can tell ya. Occasionally mordor *forgets* to talk about some things.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 8 2019, 05:13 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 8 2019, 11:47 AM) *
No slime traps? Slime monsters? Thieves? Did you check your upper inv slots? Sometimes an item is either destroyed or taken from you for a quest without telling you. Usually it's mentioned if it's destroyed but if an equipped item is taken for a quest you get NO warning, and that may have left an open slot for you.

Aside from that... Yeah, not much else I can tell ya. Occasionally mordor *forgets* to talk about some things.


Nah, none of the above. I got the message that the sword was looted into slot 18, never saw any message about it being destroyed or stolen, can't have been quested for an avenger at guild level below 175 I think... and then it just wasn't there when I looked for it when I got to town.

I'm content though. I got a cross of commanding AND a mystic shield of a demonist just now, and the cross was already good aligned.

Playing as mage is great. 6 free entraps per trip gives me lots of meatshields to help reduce chances of stoning/draining/destruction and reduce my need to heal myself. I've made sure to face butcher and demonist with 4 companions the last few times and end up coming out without getting hit (especially now thsy precog death 1 shots demonist sometimes, laugh.gif).

Minor heal hit 4 sp. I kinda want to keep playing as mage because the free entraps are so fun... but at this point I think more warrior and scavenger levels are going to make a lot bigger impact. Plus the 90+ war/scav levels still come faster than the 70ish mage/sorc ones! ok.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 8 2019, 08:26 PM

Yeah, Mage has the best crest by far in terms of spellcasting utility - 6 charges of Soul Entrapment at user's spell level is insane. It's high "damage," high bind, and would normally cost you a ton of SP, more than just about any other crest' worth (though healer's Restoration charges are also good). It's a great source of companions for shields or extra damage, a great source of money (especially with how much the confinement gives for a monster they don't have any of yet), and a great way to fill out the confinement for future quests. Gotta catch 'em all, right? laugh.gif

As far as passive effects go, I still prefer the resistances of the Sorcerer crest, but the fact that mage gives mind, magic, invis and see invis combined is a lot of tedium saved, especially when you stumble over blackout traps dry.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 9 2019, 04:12 PM

Yikes. After all this time never getting drained, I managed to get drained for 2 int and 1 wis in a single round. I think it was only 1 monster, too, because it happened after I had fired off an acid spray that almost certainly killed everything except 1-2 shuman munsae.

Anyway, I decided to keep leveling warrior up to boost my a/d and melee potential more since so much of my leveling runs are just me chopping things down and saving sp for healing or nasty groups that need to die asap. I can nearly use the avenger now, but kinda want to keep at warrior for like another 50 levels more to get my defense up close to 300 with every guild to have some more staying power on dungeon levels 6 and 7 so I can pin every time I go down. Traps are a real pain on 7 though too. Even with shift+back arrow held down to spam back into an area to get the best idea of what a trap actually is, it's pretty hard to know for sure because my ID is so crappy it hardly shows the actual trap often enough to tell what it is... and disarms fail more often than not. I tend to just leave boxes and chests entirely alone unless they're from the demonist or butcher. I haven't tried hooded thief yet because I'm pretty confident he'll just destroy/steal and then disappear before I can kill him anyway. Minotaur is way too tough still. I avoid medusa without companions. Still visiting twisted elf regularly looking for more awesome rings.

So yeah. Need more levels in more guilds than I have time for, being really careful in what I fight and do in general, etc. Standard soloer stuff! I seem to recall from my osirri that level 7 was a place I kinda hit a plateau for a long time. 8-9 never interested me too much except for getting a vampire fang, and 10 is a lot deeper than 7 so I will be messing around on 5-7 for many, many levels before I quickly map out 8-9 and start visiting giant king on 10, and graduate to the lake on 11 for more levels instead of the lake on 7 smile.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 9 2019, 05:38 PM

Oof. Yeah shuman munsae will drain you dry if you don't have drain resist. They're the reason I switched over to a grey cloak from a cloak of invisibility - hitting a blackout with no sp left and trying to get out of the dungeon is a lot more dangerous when a single bad round can cost you upwards of 3 stat points. Initially I was hesitant because I thought the extra 5% from casting the spell would matter more, but honestly the security from just not having to recast it every time i blackout is worth the slight extra risk.

Level 8-9 doesn't have too much more of value than level 7 tbh. Vampire fang is the big reward, but new sashes and boots of levitation are the other big step up. Also mithril chain for warrior types can be decent. Unfortunately all those things are pretty rare, and the jump in difficulty from 7 to 8 is brutal because of ninjas alone.


Posted by: Roland Jul 9 2019, 06:52 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 9 2019, 01:38 PM) *
Oof. Yeah shuman munsae will drain you dry if you don't have drain resist. They're the reason I switched over to a grey cloak from a cloak of invisibility - hitting a blackout with no sp left and trying to get out of the dungeon is a lot more dangerous when a single bad round can cost you upwards of 3 stat points.

That's why I always carry a Scroll of Spells and a few charges of Fate. I don't use them very often, but they are useful in an emergency.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 10 2019, 03:30 PM

Yuck. I was playing around with the disarm trap formula to ballpark how many scavenger levels I want, and while the formula was in my head, I decided to see how a 30 dex, 30 wis scav would fare at different levels against against different stuff.

As I suspected, I'll want to be 200 minimum (which is around 2/3 disarm chance against level 7 monster on dungeon level 7) before I work on other guilds. But when I looked at guild levels 300, 500, 700, and 900 vs level 15 monsters and dungeon level 15... Ugh. It's sad.

A 300 thief is about as effective as a 650 scavenger! A thief can get 95% disarm on level 15+15 though not until 700+, but a scav basically never can without dozens of blessings and glevel 999.

My osirri at 300+ thief with several blessings still felt like he took more damage from traps when clearing 15 than he did from monsters. And my human here will be a lot less effective at dealing with traps even if I manage to get scav up to 500 before doing level 15 (unless I also manage to find like a dozen blessings by then, which I probably won't unless I get warrior, mage, and sorc all up to 300 too without even setting foot on 15). And I probably will go insane not doing 15 at all until I'm that high level!

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 10 2019, 08:24 PM

Just got an elven ring off of the demonist! =D

Posted by: Roland Jul 10 2019, 09:27 PM

Thanks for sharing your research on Scavengers' boxing ability. It's rather discouraging, but if you're committed to playing a non-neutral character/party, there's not much that can be done about it. If we wanted to do it the easy way, we would all be running Dwarves!

I've been taking my Morloch down to 9. As a level-190 Scavenger with 30+ dex, he sometimes gets robbed.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 10 2019, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 10 2019, 05:27 PM) *
Thanks for sharing your research on Scavengers' boxing ability. It's rather discouraging, but if you're committed to playing a non-neutral character/party, there's not much that can be done about it. If we wanted to do it the easy way, we would all be running Dwarves!

I've been taking my Morloch down to 9. As a level-190 Scavenger with 30+ dex, he sometimes gets robbed.


Well, no original work really, just me plugging numbers into the formula from the spoilers on the wiki! No thief stinks, for sure, but I think mage access is a good balancing point overall.

I think 200 scav is too optimistic atm for me. Currently I'm 141 war, 133 scav, 84 mage, 71 sorc iirc. I'm gonna bring scav and war to 150 then sorc to 100, maybe mage some too? It'll take a couple days to do that anyway. Though my family is going to the inlaws this weekend... so I may have a real binge day!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 11 2019, 02:54 PM

So in other words, Scavenger is gonna be my primary guild moving forward. THAT'S not discouraging at all. dry.gif
I've had nothing but bad luck with boxes recently, losing a SECOND vampire fang yesterday (admittedly it was one I had picked up from the vampire and hadn't ID'ed yet, and not the one I had equipped, but still). Not only do I not learn my lessons, though, but I rarely even properly ID most traps so I can never just ignore them outright, especially when I'm on floor 9+ and could be getting something useful.

Edit: Wait, Elven Ring? Why have I never heard of these before?? I looked it up and it is just a rechargeable healing item... That would be so useful even after all the other rings stop being useful! Is this only from the Demonist or can it be dropped by the other ring-dropping monsters around the dungeon?
Methinks I need to start visiting the Demonist some more.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 11 2019, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 11 2019, 10:54 AM) *
So in other words, Scavenger is gonna be my primary guild moving forward. THAT'S not discouraging at all. dry.gif
I've had nothing but bad luck with boxes recently, losing a SECOND vampire fang yesterday (admittedly it was one I had picked up from the vampire and hadn't ID'ed yet, and not the one I had equipped, but still). Not only do I not learn my lessons, though, but I rarely even properly ID most traps so I can never just ignore them outright, especially when I'm on floor 9+ and could be getting something useful.

Edit: Wait, Elven Ring? Why have I never heard of these before?? I looked it up and it is just a rechargeable healing item... That would be so useful even after all the other rings stop being useful! Is this only from the Demonist or can it be dropped by the other ring-dropping monsters around the dungeon?
Methinks I need to start visiting the Demonist some more.


I believe it drops from all sorts of stuff, starting with twisted elf.

I love ring of teleport (have formerly just uses it as escape method if I run into trouble and can't safely run all the way out) and elven ring (again mostly saving it for emergencies, unless I have such boatloads of gold that I use it a bit on 15 to prolong stays so I spend more time fighting and less travelling in and out). Might get some mileage out of ring of opening later on too since coo isn't too awfully cheap even for a high-level scavenger.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 12 2019, 10:53 PM

Looks like I'm playing a bit more conservatively than I did when I solod an osirri starting last November. In a bit over two weeks with the osirri, I was around 150 seeker and thief, and 90 sorcerer and healer. In a bit under two weeks with my human, I'm around 150 warrior and scavenger, and 100 sorcerer and mage. But it looks like I killed the giant king for the first time with my osirri right around these levels, but my human still hasn't even gone down the stairs to dungeon level 8 yet!

I blame it on scavenger vs. thief disarming. I probably was seeing ++ to disarm on 7 with 150 thief, but I see a mix of +/*/- with 150 scavenger depending on what monster it is, so I haven't wanted to go lower when I will just get nuked by basically every chest I open and even have a hard time IDing sometimes!

Im only a few levels from upgrading my weapon as a scavenger though, so that should help as I try to boost my scav level up near 200. I want to start exploring 8, but I'll probably do it as a mage so I can use the crest to have companions as often as possible to help protect against stoning or insta-death melee. I'm nearly 300 defense as a warrior or scavenger, and a bit lower as a caster... I can just melee down giant leeches and acid spray zbrats while barely taking damage, but ninjas still worry me, and I still clench up every time I hear mythicals get an attack off (even though they usually miss anyway)!

I'm one death better off than I was last time I solod at this point though, since my osirri got killed on level 2 by a green slime very early and stoned again around these levels, when I've still just had the one death from stupidly walking down the chute by the goblin lord when I was way too low to get back out from level 5! And it seems like I probably won't ever level seeker enough with this character to be using displacement or teleport regularly (or even at all), so that'll be at least 4-5 more deaths that I never get from rocking myself and teleporting above the city and whatever! laugh.gif. Maybe I'll be able to pull off like a 3-death win!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 12 2019, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 12 2019, 04:53 PM) *
Looks like I'm playing a bit more conservatively than I did when I solod an osirri starting last November. In a bit over two weeks with the osirri, I was around 150 seeker and thief, and 90 sorcerer and healer. In a bit under two weeks with my human, I'm around 150 warrior and scavenger, and 100 sorcerer and mage. But it looks like I killed the giant king for the first time with my osirri right around these levels, but my human still hasn't even gone down the stairs to dungeon level 8 yet!

I blame it on scavenger vs. thief disarming. I probably was seeing ++ to disarm on 7 with 150 thief, but I see a mix of +/*/- with 150 scavenger depending on what monster it is, so I haven't wanted to go lower when I will just get nuked by basically every chest I open and even have a hard time IDing sometimes!


You should have significantly better combat stats on your Human because of access to the Warrior class, but the combination of lower Dexterity cap and *especially* lack of Thief access will definitely reduce your effective ability to detect and disarm traps. That said, knowing what traps each monster tends to spawn with can help you reason whether it's viable to open it or not, and eventually you'll just end up having to muscle through the failed traps or never open a box again.

You also are probably not pushing deeper because you just don't NEED to in order to level. As an Osiri you probably needed to go to floor 8+ just to pin, even on a warrior class, whereas with a human you are probably able to pin off floor 7 alone.

And it's not that Osiri resistances are *great,* but they're at least existant (and they have several 90%'s passive as well), so you are going to be spending more SP on resistance spells on this character every run, especially with the increase in failed Blackout traps you'll run into. Between that and the doubled minimum cost of CoO, you're lucky that you can survive most combats with melee, because you'll be running dry on SP really quickly.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 13 2019, 12:08 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 12 2019, 07:13 PM) *
And it's not that Osiri resistances are *great,*


Oh man, you don't think so? They're my favorite set of racial resists BY FAR. I don't rely on 90% for stoning, draining, or paralysis when solo, but 90% for 3 of the others is fantastic imo, and the ones osirri get are the more expensive ones to buff to boot.

I hate the 30-60% resists some races get. Theyre so useless when spells hit so hard, especially deeper down.


But yeah, though the osirri had a lot going for him with thief&healer and crazy dex and nice resists, I'm enjoying the human too. 20% less exp required is a pretty big deal (I actually just pinned scavenger, my highest guild, on level 6 with over 100 spell points left while looking for a lassumeon... heh... I should nuke more), and warrior melee + crits + defense is sooooo much better than seeker, and mage companions are fun and useful smile.gif

I'll definitely be spending more time learning what monsters drop loot I want at lower levels (besides the obvious big ticket items) so that I can ignore boxes and chests that won't have anything except stuff to sell to the store in them.

Edit - scavenger does have a pro though; it's not all con compared to thief. Scavengers do get nicer gear to use for all the levels you need to spend on them.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 14 2019, 01:02 AM

Finally got scavenger up to 200. Traps aren't bad on 7-8. BUt they're still pretty damn messy the little I've set foot on 9-10. I've killed a few vampires and one giant king, and ninjas and death hawks don't hurt bad at all, so I definitely have the combat ability to explore these floors... But I'm still mostly just doing 7-8 while I level up mage some.

Inspired by our good elf and evil morloch, I'm making a concerted effort to raise my casters above my warrior. I'm not sure how it will go. I really, really just love defense, and I enjoy cleaving stuff in twain too. It has always felt good having warrior (or whatever, seeker, etc) leading the way, but I figured I can give this the old college try.

I was torn on mage or sorc. Sorc is just... Man, such a good guild. Leprosy, acid spray, electric field, paralyzing death, and even arctic whatever in a pinch? It's hard to not focus on that! But I really did make this guy to be a "solo mage" and running with companions IS fun. So mage it is! If I get heal down to 10 sp though it'll be even harder to convince myself not to melee everything, laugh.gif. Ay least scav will be healing itself like crazy due to the heal but and since it's going to stay my highest guild for the thieving!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 15 2019, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 13 2019, 07:02 PM) *
Inspired by our good elf and evil morloch, I'm making a concerted effort to raise my casters above my warrior. I'm not sure how it will go. I really, really just love defense, and I enjoy cleaving stuff in twain too. It has always felt good having warrior (or whatever, seeker, etc) leading the way, but I figured I can give this the old college try.


It doesn't help that spellcasters ALSO need the most raw exp to level up. But at least they don't get quested as often, so that's a plus? (Sorc is like 10% chance of quest compared to the like 20 or 25 for Warrior). One of the most annoying thing about ninja tbh, the 35% quest chance.

Still, one of the best feelings in Mordor is blasting an entire group of spam monsters in a single cast. Even early on you can dazzle slaves or ants, and WoD vs Zbrats always feels amazing (even if it's just a Rod of Ultimate Power). Paralyzing Death vs the Dwarven Lord was one of my favorites for a while on this character, though - one of the earliest places to get several thousand exp from a single button press.

As for Mage or Sorc, both are solid. The diverse blasting potential of Sorc (plus the cheapest cast for every resistance) is really hard to pass up, but Mage does have healing, charm and Mind/Kill which covers your bases. (Plus Field of Death, while somewhat impractical, can kill more monsters in a single cast than any other spell with an insane 4/20 area compared to even WoD's 4/14). I'm leveling both, and while my main focus for dungeon delving is on Sorcerer, the power of just extra bodies if nothing else has made me VERY happy I leveled mage as much as I did. You can get away with cheaping out on Mage because of rods/spheres/etc and healing items, but natural casting is definitely a plus.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 16 2019, 02:03 PM

I had a leveling spree with mage a couple days ago and got it up around 175. I switched to sorc but wasn't enjoying leveling it. Melee didn't seem to be cutting it; the cross of commanding doesn't hit hard enough to get many swings frequently. And I can't pin when using spells more. So I started on warrior again, figuring I'd get up to 218ish which seems like a soft breakpoint on how quickly a/d goes up. Ive gotten a little stumped on a few quests so scavenger has been getting a little more attention too.

I'm feeling the post-7/pre-11 slump. 7 isn't enough xp, but it's too much for me to get all the way down to 11 and back up safely after fighting there still. And traps down on 10-11 are super hard for 200ish scavenger... -- and hard to ID.

So I'm just plodding along, hoping to get scav up yo 250 and warrior 220 or so, at which point I can hopefully handle trips to 11 (without resorting to teleport items!) and get sorc caught up to mage.

Part of me wants to ignore sorc though. I think I'll check the resists of the nastier stuff on 11+ on the wiki to see if mind and kill spells will be sufficient to go mage-wild or if it's silly to push mage that high instead of catching sorc up for electric field ownage.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 16 2019, 05:15 PM

Ehhh. Doesn't look like mage nukes alone are enough. Too many spellcasters, breath weapon monsters, and big bad guys heavily resist both mind and magic.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 16 2019, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 16 2019, 11:15 AM) *
Ehhh. Doesn't look like mage nukes alone are enough. Too many spellcasters, breath weapon monsters, and big bad guys heavily resist both mind and magic.


This is where items come in. Static Sashes, while a bit rare, have a great number of charges of Static Mesh at a pretty good level. They might not be strong enough to 1-shot a lot of level 11+ groups but they're at least a decent blasting option.
Overall I'd recommend Sorcerer for minimum cost resistances, but anything beyond that is up to you. Getting Acid Spray to minimum is another solid option that a lot of magic-resistant monsters don't resist, so with that set of coverage options you should be good for a majority of the dungeon.

And yeah, I agree that the 1.7 damage mod from Vampire Fang / Cross of Commanding just isn't quite enough to consistently kill everything I want. Your warrior levels are going to be a key buffer between 1-shotting those mid-level monsters reliably and risking a low roll / high HP mob surviving and breaking your swing streak.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 17 2019, 03:32 AM

So much for the pre-11 slump! I've now fully explored 11's water, plus the paths to the dragon rooms. But I almost died in the one because I forgot it had an extinguisher and there were 2 demons and 3 wraiths inside. I got stripped of buffs, immediately paralyzed, and beat down for over 400 hp and drained a few times before I got out at 56 hits!

But other than that I'm on a bit of a roll. I swapped to GKH to try instead of avenger since on 11 (and actually I visited 12 after finding one set of stairs on 11, just to check the two pariah rooms nearby) I very rarely get more than 2 swings anyway... and usually the stuff I would get all 4 swings on I just leprosy anyway. I'm up to 206 warrior, which combined with a new lamurian ring has nicely bumped up my defense. I ran into a master ninja earlier and he only hit me once in like 8 rounds as I beat him into submission.

I'm actually starting to get used to being a crappy thief. I rarely bother with magically locked stuff unless it's from a special monster, and have come to terms with just not opening teleport, withering, and of course slime traps. Maybe I'll leave scav on the back burner a while longer while I keep working on my combat guilds, since increasing them more will just make more scavenger levels easier later.

Posted by: Roland Jul 17 2019, 06:32 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 16 2019, 11:32 PM) *
I'm actually starting to get used to being a crappy thief. I rarely bother with magically locked stuff unless it's from a special monster, and have come to terms with just not opening teleport, withering, and of course slime traps.

My Morloch is a level-195 Scavenger. His ability to identify traps is so bad that he has now lost a few items to misidentified slime traps. He is running mostly levels 8 and 9 now.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 17 2019, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 17 2019, 02:32 PM) *
My Morloch is a level-195 Scavenger. His ability to identify traps is so bad that he has now lost a few items to misidentified slime traps. He is running mostly levels 8 and 9 now.


Yeah, at 202 he is super awful at IDing anything below 7 in a few tries. When I find a box/chest I actually want to open, I shift+back arrow in and out of that area 15+ times watching the spam of trap names watching for one that stands out. It works quite well, but of course doesn't help you actually disarm the ones that aren't strictly out of the question like slimes.

I think I can tolerate 202 scavenger for 11 and 12 but will do 250 at least before I'm in full pariah farm mode on 13&14, and 350 before 15.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 19 2019, 03:33 PM

Didn't play as much the last couple days. Part of the reason is I dislike leveling as sorcerer. I get a crappy weapon, the crest power is pretty crappy damage, it needs a lot of exp. But I'm grinding away at it, up to ~150 now, aiming for 200ish for now.

But also I haven't played as much because my ancient laptop I used for Mordor died on me! It's from 2002, the batteries last only minutes when not plugged in, and the cord coming out of the adapter finally got loose enough that it won't reliably work. So I quickly put my Mordor folder on a flash drive and pressed F for a life well lived.

I busted out my next oldest laptop that hasn't been turned on in like 5 years, which has Vista on it. It ran Mordor immediately but it has a low resolution so I had to monkey with font and window sizing and location. And then I couldn't move in the dungeon with arrow keys or clicking the on screen buttons, but got that fixed by turning off UAC. Im hoping I don't die in the next week because I hit the wrong keys... The shift key is a bit different than my old one. But anyway...

I've been killing mother of serpents here and there, but it's rough. I barely get to her room before needing to go to town. And fighting her with 2-3 EFs and healing after almost sends me back to town again. I got a static sash and a ring of splendour to show for it so far though, which is pretty sweet. Looking forward to another 25 sorcerer CLs making EF quite a bit cheaper and more damaging so killing her isn't such a production.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 19 2019, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 19 2019, 09:33 AM) *
Didn't play as much the last couple days. Part of the reason is I dislike leveling as sorcerer. I get a crappy weapon, the crest power is pretty crappy damage, it needs a lot of exp. But I'm grinding away at it, up to ~150 now, aiming for 200ish for now.


Sorcerer leveling isn't exactly the most fun, especially compared to the fast leveling of Warrior, but if you want those element and electrical spells it's a bullet you're gonna have to bite. The crest damage scales a lot with level, but a lot of things have at least partial Fire resistance. It's good for killing a lot of water mobs and a decent number of undead, but the damage ratio on Pillar of Fire isn't quite as good as something like Acid Spray.

The passive bonuses of the Sorcerer Crest are some of my favorites, though, with +12 defense and automatic resistance to basically all the natural attacks of monsters (except for acid) are helpful, though those breath attacks and on-hit electrocutions still suck to get hit by.

Sucks to hear about your old machine. F to pay respects there :dead:
At least through the magic of FLASH DRIVES your entire file hasn't failed. And hey, a new window setup can be a nice breath of fresh air! ... or it can be a big point of frustration. To each their own.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 20 2019, 05:53 PM

TFW none of any normal route you take through the dungeon is respawned even though you haven't done any of them since yesterday.

Posted by: Roland Jul 21 2019, 02:44 AM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 20 2019, 01:53 PM) *
TFW none of any normal route you take through the dungeon is respawned even though you haven't done any of them since yesterday.

In my experience, that often happens when you leave a lot of boxes unopened. But sometimes it happens for no apparent reason. Numerous times I have entered a region of the dungeon I haven't visited in months, only to find all the rooms empty.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 21 2019, 03:49 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 20 2019, 10:44 PM) *
In my experience, that often happens when you leave a lot of boxes unopened. But sometimes it happens for no apparent reason. Numerous times I have entered a region of the dungeon I haven't visited in months, only to find all the rooms empty.


Doesnt it happen that if you visit a room in the same hour you last visited it on a past day, it still thinks it's the same day&time? It HAD been just bout 24 hours since I'd visited these rooms.

That aside though, today was pretty good to me. MoS dropped a good staff of helarno to save for another couple dozen levels. A white dragon coughed up my first drsgons blood, so now I'm 16 again. Sorc is up to 177, and while PD and EF still have hefty spell costs, they're hitting a lot harder. Even AS is nocitably better at killing mid-level nasties.

My defense is up over 360 now as sorc/mage, which is pretty sweet. The only groups that do much melee damage to me at all are silent eagles and some stuff like defenders, harpies, etc. <3 defense!

Posted by: Mordion Jul 21 2019, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 20 2019, 11:49 PM) *
Doesnt it happen that if you visit a room in the same hour you last visited it on a past day, it still thinks it's the same day&time? It HAD been just bout 24 hours since I'd visited these rooms.


It's +-20min from the time of day that it last spawned ignoring date and wraparound. (Which is why the dungeon respawns at midnight)

Floor # and number of existing spawns are factored in which is why it's sometimes faster. There's also a bug around midnight that permanently decreases the spawn time of a floor by 5s each time.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 21 2019, 04:46 PM

It always confused me why the respawn calculations didn't know what day it was when other parts of the program do, like your character tab and the library and hall of fame.

Posted by: Mordion Jul 21 2019, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 21 2019, 12:46 PM) *
It always confused me why the respawn calculations didn't know what day it was when other parts of the program do, like your character tab and the library and hall of fame.


My guess is that it's because in Visual Basic the time of day is a single number but the date is a bunch of numbers and is difficult to work with.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 22 2019, 03:52 AM

Ugh. Almost to 200 sorc. I think I stopped at 198 tonight. Has started to feel like quite a grind the last 10 levels or so.

I found my first ever dominator from blue&normal pelagons on dungeon level 10 today though, so not useful but kinda fun.

Still not 2-shotting mother of serpents with EF, which is depressing, but I doubt I'll keep going above 201 in sorc right now. I'm ready for some faster levels!

Posted by: Roland Jul 22 2019, 07:53 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 21 2019, 11:52 PM) *
Still not 2-shotting mother of serpents with EF, which is depressing, but I doubt I'll keep going above 201 in sorc right now. I'm ready for some faster levels!

White Dragons are good companions to take against MoS. Her resistance to their cold breath is very low.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 22 2019, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 22 2019, 03:53 PM) *
White Dragons are good companions to take against MoS. Her resistance to their cold breath is very low.


By chance my last kill on her involved 4 white dragons, laugh.gif

So is it correct that monsters anf company ignore total resistances of each other, but not partials? Or is it only "complete weapon immunity" like a lunch demon and "complete magic immunity" like a numanog that companions/monsters ignore when targeting each other?

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 22 2019, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 22 2019, 04:54 PM) *
By chance my last kill on her involved 4 white dragons, laugh.gif

So is it correct that monsters anf company ignore total resistances of each other, but not partials? Or is it only "complete weapon immunity" like a lunch demon and "complete magic immunity" like a numanog that companions/monsters ignore when targeting each other?


I assume that total immunity to a particular element will mitigate the effect of even natural attacks (stone, eletrocute, breath, etc). Monster attacks bypass weapon resistance and immunity, however. Not sure about complete magic immunity, I'd have to pay more attention to when my witches blast a numanog.

As far as mommy sneko goes, she's 100% resistant to fire, but only 10% to cold, and white dragons have :gasp: cold breath.

Speaking of which, mom isn't resistant to electric OR disease. Has anyone tried using Leprosy to bring her down, or is the damage just too little to be worthwhile? I realize it would take several casts anyway so it's probably a moot point, and by that point you'd be much better off with EF or possibly even a strong melee attacker.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 24 2019, 04:53 AM

Well I ended up catching mage up to sorc, so they're both at 201 now. Genies and coltpixies and witches and white dragons, oh my.

I've been killing mother of serpents and visiting all the mythical rooms on 12-13 before just poking around on 10-11 some waiting for respawns. Saw 1 pariah earlier, but he didn't have a chest or box. Found my first vampire fang only to realize I don't really care because scavenger uses better weapons than thief can, and i have a staff of helarno for my casters. Otherwise I've just been slowly gaining some gold and stocking my bank with consumables as I farm/level.

Im still putting off scavenger levels since I can't remember the last time any items got stolen even by stuff on 13, and I rarely have gold stolen, anf ive just come to accept I'll trigger most traps and need to shift+back arrow EVERY chest to ID it. But I did zip through 14 more warrior levels during extra innings of tonight's Tiger's game. Yay 7 more defense!

Not sure if I'll keep leveling warrior for better melee and defense... or keep at mage for the safety of more companions without having to be overly cautious and slow in my dungeon trips. I'll do both more before I touch level 14. I fought the golden eagle stud room on 13 earlier to see how it'd go, going in with about 360 defense and 4 companions, and they're nasty for me. Took a second trip in with 4 fresh companions to finish them all, and it was not efficient in any way whatsoever... Like 6 paralyzing deaths and 400+ hits of healing and 8 dead companions just to kill 9 golden eagles. So I'm not ready to run into them or gargantuans regularly on 14 ... though sneaking down just to go cast field of death on the slither room really is tempting! laugh.gif

Posted by: Roland Jul 24 2019, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 24 2019, 12:53 AM) *
I fought the golden eagle stud room on 13 earlier to see how it'd go, going in with about 360 defense and 4 companions, and they're nasty for me. Took a second trip in with 4 fresh companions to finish them all, and it was not efficient in any way whatsoever... Like 6 paralyzing deaths and 400+ hits of healing and 8 dead companions just to kill 9 golden eagles. So I'm not ready to run into them or gargantuans regularly on 14 ... though sneaking down just to go cast field of death on the slither room really is tempting! laugh.gif

Did you try casting Soul Entrapment on the Golden Eagles? As a level-201 Mage, you would have a 66% chance of success against an Eagle with average hits.


Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 24 2019, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Jul 24 2019, 03:07 PM) *
Did you try casting Soul Entrapment on the Golden Eagles? As a level-201 Mage, you would have a 66% chance of success against an Eagle with average hits.


Nah, I didnt. I didn't want to go into the room without 4 companions already because of how hard they can hit me, nor stick around after a few of my companions are dead!

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 25 2019, 12:39 PM

I've decided to work on warrior, ideally getting my 2nd extra swing before working on other guilds again.

Except the relatively low exp requirements of warrior and the higher quest chance means I keep pinning before I see what I need, and then I end up having to swap to scavenger for a bit before I find it, then I swap back. Quite bothersome.

Also bothersome is getting con drained when I'm trying to wield GKH, since that means it gets unequipped in the middle of fighting a couple liches. laugh.gif

It's quite a bit of exp to get to warrior 324, but the extra a/d and combat and especially the extra swing (3 swings with GKH, yay) will be great to have as I work on running scav from 210ish up to 300, then work on casters again. Other than a half dozen random levels when pinned and quested with warrior, I haven't worked on scavenger in almost two weeks!

I wonder how the game decides how well monsters rob you. I don't think it's the same as the way disarming or IDing works, because my 200 scav basically never gets robbed on 12-13 even though I commented on my osirri thread that I needed more thief levels (from 179) on those levels to avoid being stolen from.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 25 2019, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 25 2019, 06:39 AM) *
I wonder how the game decides how well monsters rob you. I don't think it's the same as the way disarming or IDing works, because my 200 scav basically never gets robbed on 12-13 even though I commented on my osirri thread that I needed more thief levels (from 179) on those levels to avoid being stolen from.


Dexterity seems to be the biggest thing, but a decent thieving skill goes a long way. I occasionally have money stolen from me when I hurt a floor 10+ thief down to low HP but don't actually kill them, but I haven't lost an item to anything that wasn't a slime trap or clean-up in a fair amount of time. (I'm starting to dread walking into the fog room on 7 by the stairs between 6 and 7 because freaking Slippery Mires there keep taking my stuff).

As far as questing is concerned, when you were leveling Mage, did you try filling out your confinement? Whenever I get quested for something now, if I don't have one in confinement already I make it a goal to seek it out and charm it (if possible).

I'm STILL kicking myself for accidentally attacking the charm-immune Morey Bilk that 'j'oined me, because apparently not ONLY are they super rare, but they also rarely 'j'oin at all. Not that I'd have been able to recycle it because of the whole, y'know, charm immunity. But it's still frustrating.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 25 2019, 04:02 PM

You can circle around that slime room. I don't think the two rooms next to it have slime spawns. One IS mythicals though, so you pick your poison.

I almost always charm and then put in confinement for stuff I get quested for, or for something I know is rare and run into like tengu, morgul, etc. It helps sometimes, but I haven't had a lot of repeat quests so far. I don't have much interest in filling confinement in and of itself though, so I haven't made runs back and forth when I find something I haven't sold to it yet. Slows down my exp grind too much!

I only just saw my first sets of Morey bilks the last couple days! None offered to join though. I think the only charm resistant thing I've had 'j'oin so far were numanogs, which I see a ton of anyway smile.gif

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 04:38 PM

Mythicals aren't really an issue unless I have no resistances up or am trying to lug around companions, plus I'm strong enough to 1-shot floor 7 mythicals even in melee. It's gonna take some getting used to but I'll just have to re-train myself not to enter the slime room. Half the time they're non-aggressive anyway, but even just running through the room of an aggressive slime stack can be enough to lose an item if you're unlucky. The biggest issue is I'm not strong enough to reliably 1-shot them in melee, and if a Slippery Mire spawns then my spells are worthless.

Speaking of slimes, I ran into a patch of (peaced, thankfully) Violet Fungi on 12 in my recent mapping expedition. I cautiously backed the heck out of that room and didn't go back. 1337.gif

And speaking of re-training habits, are there any dungeon maneuvering habits which you've noticed you have, even if there's no good reason for them? For instance, I noticed that I always go through the right set of teleporters on 4 and 5, never the left, even if it means I need to turn around 180 degrees to do so. For coming back it makes sense because it's an easier walk around the block, but for going deeper it shouldn't make a difference, yet I always do it.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 26 2019, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 26 2019, 12:38 PM) *
Mythicals aren't really an issue unless I have no resistances up or am trying to lug around companions, plus I'm strong enough to 1-shot floor 7 mythicals even in melee. It's gonna take some getting used to but I'll just have to re-train myself not to enter the slime room. Half the time they're non-aggressive anyway, but even just running through the room of an aggressive slime stack can be enough to lose an item if you're unlucky. The biggest issue is I'm not strong enough to reliably 1-shot them in melee, and if a Slippery Mire spawns then my spells are worthless.

Speaking of slimes, I ran into a patch of (peaced, thankfully) Violet Fungi on 12 in my recent mapping expedition. I cautiously backed the heck out of that room and didn't go back. 1337.gif

And speaking of re-training habits, are there any dungeon maneuvering habits which you've noticed you have, even if there's no good reason for them? For instance, I noticed that I always go through the right set of teleporters on 4 and 5, never the left, even if it means I need to turn around 180 degrees to do so. For coming back it makes sense because it's an easier walk around the block, but for going deeper it shouldn't make a difference, yet I always do it.


The same reason you give for avoiding slime rooms, an unlucky attack melting an item before you kill them or run through, is what scares me in mythical rooms. It's just a matter of when, not if, you get unlucky and get stoned, so I try my best to avoid mythicals when at all reasonable, and I'm fast to nuke them if I see them (cause I don't want their hitting me on the way out the door to even have a chance to happen).

I saw my first horde of violet fungi recently too! Noped the hell out of that room!

An annoying habit i developed is when I walk into a room as I'm fighting through the dungeon, I quickly run myself to be facing the door to the next room. I guess it speeds things up minimally. But really I should be in the habit of just entering and being ready to run back out if needed, not running myself automatically deeper into uncleared rooms! Small issue overall, especially when not playing solo or not too concerned about keeping deaths low... but it's a habit I've been trying to break, laugh.gif.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 26 2019, 10:43 AM) *
The same reason you give for avoiding slime rooms, an unlucky attack melting an item before you kill them or run through, is what scares me in mythical rooms. It's just a matter of when, not if, you get unlucky and get stoned, so I try my best to avoid mythicals when at all reasonable, and I'm fast to nuke them if I see them (cause I don't want their hitting me on the way out the door to even have a chance to happen).

I mean, there's always a slim chance, but you can put up resistances to mitigate stone chance. You can't put up resistances vs item destruction. Best you can do is carry around items you don't care about and hope that if it hits it'll take one of those instead of something you really care about.

Posted by: Mordion Jul 26 2019, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 26 2019, 01:14 PM) *
I mean, there's always a slim chance, but you can put up resistances to mitigate stone chance. You can't put up resistances vs item destruction. Best you can do is carry around items you don't care about and hope that if it hits it'll take one of those instead of something you really care about.

Can someone confirm that you have to carry the items? I haven’t checked the source code but I was under the impression that empty slots can get targeted.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 26 2019, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Jul 26 2019, 04:28 PM) *
Can someone confirm that you have to carry the items? I haven’t checked the source code but I was under the impression that empty slots can get targeted.


I can't confirm from game code, but if it works that way then the game just doesn't ever tell you if it "hits an empty slot."
I've had a lot of times, for instance, where I open a Slime trap, the sound plays that I failed to disarm it, but nothing gets destroyed. More often than not, actually, nothing gets destroyed. Which would make sense if it was rolling a random integer from 1 to 40 and then hitting that item slot. The only other way I could see it working is if there was, for lack of better term, a hidden "saving throw" against having an item destroyed, and then if you fail it randomly hits one of your held/equipped items.

I also assume that when slimes attack, they randomly roll their "chance to destroy item," and then if that says they destroy something then they roll a random inventory slot. Whether they can target empty slots or not is not something I'm sure of, but if someone who has an editor or access to that code could check it out I'd be really interested to see how that works exactly.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 27 2019, 02:32 PM

I assumed they worked like slime traps too, yeah.

Up to 285 warrior. Getting closer. Crit something for over 250 last night, laugh.gif. It's crazy how slowly the exp needed per level goes up with warrior compared to casters. I'll be over 300 and still needing less than sorc and mage do at 200.

I need to teach myself how to use consumables more. My bank is bursting with fate, sp, and heal items, rings of frost, assorted spheres, etc.

Posted by: Mordion Jul 28 2019, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jul 26 2019, 07:48 PM) *
I can't confirm from game code, but if it works that way then the game just doesn't ever tell you if it "hits an empty slot."
I've had a lot of times, for instance, where I open a Slime trap, the sound plays that I failed to disarm it, but nothing gets destroyed. More often than not, actually, nothing gets destroyed. Which would make sense if it was rolling a random integer from 1 to 40 and then hitting that item slot. The only other way I could see it working is if there was, for lack of better term, a hidden "saving throw" against having an item destroyed, and then if you fail it randomly hits one of your held/equipped items.

I also assume that when slimes attack, they randomly roll their "chance to destroy item," and then if that says they destroy something then they roll a random inventory slot. Whether they can target empty slots or not is not something I'm sure of, but if someone who has an editor or access to that code could check it out I'd be really interested to see how that works exactly.


I just checked the code.

MONSMOD.BAS:3294 is the destroy item attack.

It first picks a slot and if it's empty nothing happens.
Then it calculates the odds and limits it to the range 25%-90%
Then it compares the items dungeon level with the monsters dungeon level and aborts if the item is 2 floors better.

MONSMOD.BAS:3539 is the slime trap.
Odds of success are 50% + 2*dungeon level
Then it picks a slot and if it's empty then nothing happens.

Side note, I found another bug. it seems like monsters can never steal from the first slot so put your hands somewhere else.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 28 2019, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Jul 27 2019, 10:14 PM) *
I just checked the code.

MONSMOD.BAS:3294 is the destroy item attack.

It first picks a slot and if it's empty nothing happens.
Then it calculates the odds and limits it to the range 25%-90%
Then it compares the items dungeon level with the monsters dungeon level and aborts if the item is 2 floors better.

MONSMOD.BAS:3539 is the slime trap.
Odds of success are 50% + 2*dungeon level
Then it picks a slot and if it's empty then nothing happens.

Side note, I found another bug. it seems like monsters can never steal from the first slot so put your hands somewhere else.


Oh, nice. So I don't really need to worry about a blessing or level14-15 drops getting eaten passing through slime rooms on 1-10. Poor rings would still be vulnerable though sad.gif

Posted by: Mordion Jul 28 2019, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 28 2019, 12:58 PM) *
Oh, nice. So I don't really need to worry about a blessing or level14-15 drops getting eaten passing through slime rooms on 1-10. Poor rings would still be vulnerable though sad.gif


I just calculated the odds.
Resistance = 45 - monster's dungeonlevel + player dex - monster dex * 2

if the player is in some state then player dex is multiplied by 4. Still digging on what that means.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 28 2019, 09:30 PM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Jul 28 2019, 04:09 PM) *
I just calculated the odds.
Resistance = 45 - monster's dungeonlevel + player dex - monster dex * 2

if the player is in some state then player dex is multiplied by 4. Still digging on what that means.


I thought the aborts if item is 2 levels higher than monster dungeon level meant some items can't be destroyed by some monsters.

Posted by: Mordion Jul 28 2019, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 28 2019, 05:30 PM) *
I thought the aborts if item is 2 levels higher than monster dungeon level meant some items can't be destroyed by some monsters.

You’re correct. Assuming the slot is not empty and the item quality is low enough then these are the odds for destruction.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 29 2019, 12:59 PM

So what's the deal with conditionally-spawned rooms? As in, rooms that will never be spawned if you approach them from one direction but will be spawned coming at them from the other way?

The first example of this i see is on level 1, in the bottom right corner. There's a room there in the water (I don't remember exactly) that will be spawned as normal if I come at it from the north, but if I clear towards it from the West then it is empty every time.

On 13 too. The hallway area just above the north stairs to 12, like 19,29,13? Never spawned if I etheral portal up from the stairwell. Spawned if I come in from the misty area to the east first. Mythical room at 20,12,13 is the same. Won't be spawned EVER if I come in from the north-west door. Will spawn as normal if I circle around to the east and come down the hallway into it as my first entrance to the area in a while. Stuff like that

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 29 2019, 03:03 PM

Man, these warrior levels are GREAT.

I'm up to 304 now, and hitting like a freight train with my GKH (when I don't get con drained). Average hits of over 100 it feels like, sometimes even close to 200. Severs for over 300 rarely. And soon I'll have 3 swings with it!

At that point I'll pound out 50 scav levels just to try to not fall too far behind the difficulty of traps, and to keep the 4-5 consumables I have been carrying always from getting stolen. Then finally the long haul with mage to bottom out soul entrapment cost (well, and precog death and driving field of death pretty low too)!

That won't seem as bad as it really is I think, that 200-320ish grind, zince during those levels I'll be exploring 14 also. Gargantuans and golden eagles are still very, very scary since my defense and hits will be around 430 and 750, respectively, and they can definitely kill me in one round, but I'm fairly confident that constant companions from my mage crest will keep me alive. Exploring new spaces forces me to me more cautious, too, and I'll still be on 12-13 80% lf the time anyway, clearing through pariah rooms. And it'll be great to see some new items again after spending the last couple weeks with hardly any new gear. My a/d should jump nicely within a few days on 14 I hope, even though it'll be some time before I gain any more a/d from more warrior levels.

Posted by: Mordion Jul 29 2019, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 29 2019, 08:59 AM) *
So what's the deal with conditionally-spawned rooms? As in, rooms that will never be spawned if you approach them from one direction but will be spawned coming at them from the other way?

The first example of this i see is on level 1, in the bottom right corner. There's a room there in the water (I don't remember exactly) that will be spawned as normal if I come at it from the north, but if I clear towards it from the West then it is empty every time.

On 13 too. The hallway area just above the north stairs to 12, like 19,29,13? Never spawned if I etheral portal up from the stairwell. Spawned if I come in from the misty area to the east first. Mythical room at 20,12,13 is the same. Won't be spawned EVER if I come in from the north-west door. Will spawn as normal if I circle around to the east and come down the hallway into it as my first entrance to the area in a while. Stuff like that

I’ve never heard of this before. Could it be one of the cross-linked rooms? where two rooms have the same ID so if you clear a room on one part of the map it’s twin becomes empty too? I believe there's one in one of the 2 square rooms in the SE corner of the 1st floor.

There’s also a pit trap bug where if you take pit damage as you enter the monsters don’t show up. If you leave and come back and not fall in then the monsters will be there.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 30 2019, 02:31 PM

Weird. It's definitely reproducable for me. Only is a little annoying cause I haven't really seen it happening in rooms I am seeking out so much as passing through

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 31 2019, 03:32 PM

Hurrah, I hit 324 warrior for an extra swing! Still gonna do a few more levels next time I play to get the 4 more a/d at 328 before upping scavenger a bit though.

I skimmed some of my posts from my solo osiri and it looks like at similar levels to my human, I was already done exploring my route through 14 (mythical, dragon, etc rooms). I've hardly set foot on 14 with my human yet though! But that'll change soon, then hopefully j start seeing more pariahs and gear upgrades smile.gif

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 4 2019, 03:24 AM

Bah! Ate my second death just now, to the first group of gargantuans I've seen. Mage is great for having companions to soak up those big attacks... when you actually remember to charm stuff before going down to 14. Aged 3 years to add insult to injury, so I'm back up to 21 without another dragons blood waiting. I've been getting drained every few dungeon trips, which has slowly been aging me again as I use up all my good tomes. I've started going by goblin shaman and cockatrice again regularly looking for more aards.

Also annoyed at how many companions I keep losing to spells I shouldn't lose them to. Lost 3 mundragons to 1 flesh to stone (which also tried to hit me), despite it being a 1-target spell.

I've yet to see a 2nd pariah. I've gotten no upgrades in what feels like ages. I can't really poke around on 14 yet without being super careful (as in never stepping into a humanoid area, and never not having 3-4 companions). And there's no significant improvement in my survivability on the horizon either since I have most of my defense from guild levels already and the only upgrades I can find without being on 14 are blessings!

Oh well. At least levels still come pretty quickly at the 213 mage Im currently working on.


Edit - whoa. I just IDed a belt of giant strength! That's +15 attack and +6 defense drom my old belt! Took like 200 million to get the dang thing IDed and realigned though. QQ. It's silly the level requirements on some of this stuff. Like how am I ever going to find this thing at nomad 95? laugh.gif

Posted by: Roland Aug 5 2019, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Aug 3 2019, 11:24 PM) *
I just IDed a belt of giant strength! That's +15 attack and +6 defense drom my old belt! Took like 200 million to get the dang thing IDed and realigned though. QQ. It's silly the level requirements on some of this stuff. Like how am I ever going to find this thing at nomad 95? laugh.gif

You buy it from the store, where higher-level characters deposited it! This is one of those things Mordor inherited from Avatar, which assumes dozens (if not hundreds) of characters coexisting in the same world. The point of the level restrictions on items is to prevent low-level characters from being invincible from the outset. They don't serve much of a purpose when you have 1 to 4 characters exploring a fresh dungeon.

I think this is why I am so comfortable running new characters in an existing dungeon rather than starting over with a new dungeon. My point of reference is Avatar, not Diablo.

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 8 2019, 08:40 PM

So as great as the mage crest is... I really want to be a warrior (or scav) again. The GKH is GODLY compared to a vampire fang or staff of helarno.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 8 2019, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Aug 8 2019, 02:40 PM) *
So as great as the mage crest is... I really want to be a warrior (or scav) again. The GKH is GODLY compared to a vampire fang or staff of helarno.


No extra swings, but ability to 1-shot deep dwelling monsters (assuming high str, atk and fight ability)? Seems like a fair trade.

Every class has SOMETHING they're good at - or if not good, at least decent enough or "best available" for a certain race.
Except Villain. Villain has no purpose.

Posted by: korexus Aug 8 2019, 10:49 PM

Lots of swings and no class restriction. For a solo player. Are you sure?

I guess if you can hit the mid sized groups with a big spell, or rely on companions, you're fine. But I love me my Vampire Fangs! smile.gif


korexus.

Posted by: Roland Aug 8 2019, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 8 2019, 04:56 PM) *
Every class has SOMETHING they're good at - or if not good, at least decent enough or "best available" for a certain race.
Except Villain. Villain has no purpose.

In Mordor that is probably true. In Avatar, Villains were much better for two reasons: 1) their spell list included Charm of Opening; and 2) Giants could be evil, and Giants could be Villains. In a game where multi-classing was not possible, it was hard to beat a Giant Villain as a solo char.

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 9 2019, 01:26 PM

QUOTE (korexus @ Aug 8 2019, 06:49 PM) *
Lots of swings and no class restriction. For a solo player. Are you sure?

I guess if you can hit the mid sized groups with a big spell, or rely on companions, you're fine. But I love me my Vampire Fangs! smile.gif


korexus.


If I wanted to melee down packs of orps and giant hornets and crocodiles, vampire fang would be great. But I'm fighting heros and banshees and coltpixies and lamurian soldiers, etc. Even with GKH I'm not going to get more than my 3 swings in before I fail to kill something (if I even get that many). Poking stuff for 35-60 on a regular basis with vampire fang doesn't cut it, regardless of it's advantages being useful if I want to level wizard or seeker up someday smile.gif

It's not that the vampire fang is bad, just that the big hits trump all imo when fighting stuff down on deeper levels.

Posted by: Roland Aug 9 2019, 07:39 PM

If you want to compromise, Dwarven Hammer and Avenger both give more damage than Vamp Fang and more swings the GKH. They're both good until you start hitting level-15 stud rooms.


Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 9 2019, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Aug 9 2019, 07:26 AM) *
If I wanted to melee down packs of orps and giant hornets and crocodiles, vampire fang would be great. But I'm fighting heros and banshees and coltpixies and lamurian soldiers, etc. Even with GKH I'm not going to get more than my 3 swings in before I fail to kill something (if I even get that many). Poking stuff for 35-60 on a regular basis with vampire fang doesn't cut it, regardless of it's advantages being useful if I want to level wizard or seeker up someday smile.gif

It's not that the vampire fang is bad, just that the big hits trump all imo when fighting stuff down on deeper levels.


That's a fair point.
Meanwhile, as an Elf with the lowest STR in the game combined with the dreaded Small size mod, I've given up on even hoping to efficiently melee-down any sort of dangerous monster below like floor 10. My natural STR cap of 20 prevents me from using a GKH (22 req) so it's not like that's even an option to begin with.

With Human's normal size mod, natural STR cap of 22, and solid class selection of Warrior and even Ninja (if you ever get hungry for swings), you are able to go toe to toe with most things in the game (though not as insanely effectively as a giant with a natural cap of 30 and a Very Big size mod). Your magic selection is also not bad, with a natural SP cap of 230, which is plenty good enough to splash in some high level spells for efficient clearing of large groups, boss-killing checks and panic buttons.

Honestly, I don't blame you for preferring the good ol' GKH. It saves SP for hordes which are more efficient to throw a mid-tier spell at anyway, and against bigger things it gives you a fighting chance even without SP.

I just prefer the dagger because I need to spam spells to kill anything strong already, so I need to preserve my SP in general, so melee'ing down the mid-sized groups is preferable, in which case I prefer swings to raw damage.

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 15 2019, 01:49 PM

I haven't been playing much the last several days, but I have gotten mage up to 250. It's been pretty nice grinding those levels along thanks to the mage crest. I actually killed a group of gargantuans this morning on level 14 without even getting hit OR losing a companion (I had two lamurian soldiers and two spectral dragons at the time), even though it took two electric fields + 1 melee round so they got some shots in on my companions. I found a gloves of doom on the shadow of death on 14, which is great because that is another item that I was specifically looking for on my old osirri that I never managed to find. 18 effective defense gloves? Yes please.

Unfortunately the +50 mage levels hasn't really done a lot to make me stronger. Using the crest 6 times per trip into the dungeon is AMAZING, but 200-250 didn't do much to drive down spell point costs. I still need 83 more mage levels to bottom out soul entrapment cost to make it more usable when I'm in warrior, scavenger, or sorcerer guilds... and the number of levels I need to minimize precog or field of death costs are just utterly ridiculous. laugh.gif.

But I'm not convinced I want to revisit sorcerer, either. It'll be 113 levels there to minimize EF and PD costs. And while that WOULD make them deliciously cheap to cast at only 11 and 10 SP, respectively, the fact that those two spells are the only reason to level sorcerer at all and that I want my character "to be a mage" ... ehhhhhhh. Precog and field hit harder than PD but less than EF at the same spell level, but they never cost as little and there seems to be more combined mind+magic resists than electric+paralysis resists on the nasty stuff on the bottom floors that I really want to nuke. But mage levels also give me a little more healing, and more importantly give soul entrapment more oomph to ensure I charm all 4 it can and/or that I can even stick charm well on stuff that has some magic resistance.

I'm not playing any more right now though, so maybe I'll check out the wiki some to see if I think it's viable to crawl around on 14-15 without stronger EF/PD before then. I guess I'm leaning towards more mage levels if for nothing else than they make it a lot safer to continue pushing deeper, and I start to get bored grinding the same 11-13 more than I have already without something else to mix it up!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 15 2019, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Aug 15 2019, 07:49 AM) *
I'm not playing any more right now though, so maybe I'll check out the wiki some to see if I think it's viable to crawl around on 14-15 without stronger EF/PD before then. I guess I'm leaning towards more mage levels if for nothing else than they make it a lot safer to continue pushing deeper, and I start to get bored grinding the same 11-13 more than I have already without something else to mix it up!


I don't know exactly how it goes, but there are a lot of really effective spellcasting items that you can hunt for and then use as a warrior (most should be usable in any class but some are warrior-class specific like gauntlets). Things like the Helm of Brilliance for Electric Field. What's more, they cast these spells at spell levels between 190 and 225, depending on the item, which is incredibly high compared to your spellcaster levels. I think there's something of a running joke that David Allen just hated spellcasters, because there are items that can cast basically any late-game spell you could want (though they can be pretty rare to find).

I definitely understand the feeling of burnout, though, especially with just how much you've been grinding at the game over the past few weeks. You took this character from nothing to 200/300 in multiple classes in about a month. That's got to be over a hundred hours just on this character alone! I get zoned out and bored after a significant amount of grinding, hence why anymore I only play Mordor if I am either recording or watching a video on the side - I'm the type of person who needs a lot of mental stimulation to remain interested, and though there's still a good amount of thought and planning that go into a Mordor character, the actual grind itself can get a bit dull.

Not to say that I find Mordor inherently boring - it still gives an experience I've never found anywhere else - I just agree that the endless grind of the same stuff over and over can wear you down after awhile.

Posted by: Roland Aug 15 2019, 07:22 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 15 2019, 10:15 AM) *
I get zoned out and bored after a significant amount of grinding, hence why anymore I only play Mordor if I am either recording or watching a video on the side - I'm the type of person who needs a lot of mental stimulation to remain interested, and though there's still a good amount of thought and planning that go into a Mordor character, the actual grind itself can get a bit dull.

I typically play Mordor while watching music programs I record from PBS (e.g., Austin City Limits or Sun Studio Sessions). But because I am less than 100% focused on the game, I sometimes do something stupid - e.g., killing a monster on auto-pilot before I realize it was a Tengu and I should have charmed it for confinement.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 16 2019, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Roland @ Aug 15 2019, 01:22 PM) *
I typically play Mordor while watching music programs I record from PBS (e.g., Austin City Limits or Sun Studio Sessions). But because I am less than 100% focused on the game, I sometimes do something stupid - e.g., killing a monster on auto-pilot before I realize it was a Tengu and I should have charmed it for confinement.

Killing friendly 'j'oining monsters is a serious issue I've had in the past. I'm getting better at noticing them, mostly by training myself to look at the monsters before deciding if I want to 'f'ight or cast a buffer.
I'm still never going to live down my mis-clicked attack of a friendly Morey Bilk that 'j'oined me. I freaking did it on recording, too... :shame:

Posted by: fischsemmel Aug 17 2019, 11:57 AM

Well, I've been starting to poke around on 15 while working on mage levels. Mostly on memory, but with a bit of help from maps, I'm avoiding the stud rooms, and I'm only going down there after I clear all the potential pariah rooms on 12-14. So far I've managed to kill a magi lord, a couple warlords, a couple masters of shadows, besides the more usual stuff, but don't have anything to show for it buy 3 more years of age (oops, meleed a daemon lord instead of nuking him) and more open bank slots (as I use up some scrolls of spells and fate potion).

Spending a bit of time down there has me decided on taking mage to 333 at least, to minimize soul entrapment cost. I need about 11 million more experience, which doesn't sound too awful considering I'm up at like 70 million total now or something like that. Whether I keep going from there for bigger numbers and to chase 385 to minimize precognitive death's costs too is up in the air. But I'll need the cheap SE casts for when I level my other guilds more, since I refuse to stay on 13 and above just for the sake of safer grinding.

Somewhat surprisingly (to me, anyway), I don't think I'm going to spend much more time on scavenger, at least not until warrior a/d is maxed and mage is close to level 400. I used to think it'd need to be my highest class in order to give me a good-enough disarm chance to not be getting chewed up by fire and exploding and blackout traps on the lower levels (and I'll still just never open slime at all, or teleporting on 15 (well unless it's a black gremlin or pariah chest), or withering unless it's a box from a good monster), but I don't really notice the very regular disarm failures being as much of a problem as I expected, and short of the named thief stuff on 15 I'm not getting robbed hardly at all, and more backstabs are not a big factor really.

More warrior would be nice to finish up my guild a/d though, but it's still over 100 more levels just for like 40 more defense, so it's taking a back seat for now.


Hopefully I'll get to play some more today, and I'll find an upgrade or two on 15 and finally start seeing some pariahs. I had 3 blessings with my osirri by this point, but my human hasn't even seen 3 pariahs yet sad.gif And I really need those damn things, cause I'm not walking into 15 stud rooms until my dex is high enough that I have a good chance of getting the first action against the big fella or his prince buddy, and of course the massive a/d doesn't hurt either.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 3 2019, 11:51 AM

Well I haven't played in over a week as I was spending time camping and playing another game, but this morning I spent about 50 minutes doing a run of my usual 12-15 route as I continue to level mage up (290.5 to start this session).

I saw my third pariah finally, in the first possible spot on 12, but yet again no chest. There's honestly a decent chance I'll ragequit Mordor if I go much more with this shit pariah luck... laugh.gif

But I ran all the pariah rooms on 12, 13, 14, hit white dragon spots on return trips to town, moved around on 15 on the south and west areas where I just generally look for pariahs, chests, and named stuff. I did see a dragon queen, but no item came from it. I survived 3 separate gargantuan attacks, though one was a pretty narrow escape cause I ethereal portaled into them and had to run a ways to get away... I'll probably stop using that exact route to avoid that happening again. Precognitive death hits gargantuans pretty hard, but they REALLY have a lot of hits so it still isn't quite enough to handle them in a comfortable way. I probably need mage in 350-400 range for that.

I did add up 4 whole levels in my ~50 minutes of play though, who h seems like it's still nice progress. Minimum soul entrapment cost is approaching steadily. I think I can get by without more sorcerer levels long enough to start finding lightning swords (well, they're easy to find really, but too risky ATM cause going into that lair risks also going into the next lair and destroyer of the deep is nasty nasty). I'll need a WoD item eventually too cause I really doubt I've got it in me to even start working on wizard levels! Maybe I'll zip out some more warrior and scavenger before I push beyond minimum SE cost, but even that will still be a ways off unless I start playing a bunch again!

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 4 2019, 04:32 PM

Good to have you back! Mordor can't keep anyone away forever, it seems diablo.gif

You've seen 3 Pariahs, but no chest among them? Dang, I've yet to even see a single Pariah. Oh well, it will happen eventually.

Sorcerer has spells for most situations, but the most effective spells (PD and EF) are less effective against certain monster types (Daemon Lord) that I REALLY want to instant kill, so at this point I'm basically going to be keeping a buffer prepared just for those encounters. as a primary Sorcerer I have more variety of spells able to hit more variety of monsters, but at the cost of having to manage multiple different buffers. Give and take, I suppose.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 5 2019, 02:29 PM

Yeah, I relied heavily on EF and PD with my osirri. I'd love to have them stronger with my human too, but I don't think I have it left in me. I actually tinkered with a fresh party to try a hardcore playthrough yesterday instead of playing my human... laugh.gif

Pariahs are a pain. I literally do nothing in the dungeon except run a route through all the pariah rooms 12-14 and some of them on 15. Blessings, fairly random drops on 14-15, and experience are 98% of what can help me at this point.

For a while I thought that my human would be able to win without any blessings, because of having companions to reduce the chance of getting killed in 1 round by the big fella or his prince buddy. But lately I'm not so sure. I've been starting to think they won't help enough since my 6+ lower dex means like half the flame devils and probably asmo will act before I do and they'll just wipe everything out with breath weapons and leave me to eat melee attacks by myself.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 5 2019, 02:37 PM

It's possible I was playing my osirri more than my human, but for comparison:

Osirri at ~7 weeks was about 400 seeker, 350 sorc, 300 thief, 250 healer, had seen 42 pariahs who dropped 7 blessings, and killed asmo without dying (to asmo). The dungeon was basically fully explored.

Human at ~2 months is about 330 warrior, 280 mage, 250 scavenger, 200 sorc. He's only seen 3 pariahs, and 0 blessings, and has only ever entered the one stud room on 15 that has mythicals but no demons, devils, or undead. I haven't even explored all of any floor below 6... Hah

Then again, my mage has only died twice compared to 12ish for my osirri. Most of the difference is my mage never uses displacement or teleport, and has yet to face destroyer of the deep or the potentially-nasty 15 stud rooms.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 5 2019, 04:49 PM

Could very well be the case of just raw binge time. Human should have a much lower exp requirement for everything compared to Osiri, so you're probably just not playing nearly as much (and also you're leveling in guilds that don't have as much "bang for their buck" as the neutral-exclusive Thief and Healer guilds, two of the best guilds in the game).

The extra high dex of an Osiri is definitely their biggest draw, and combined with that and a lack of Thief access from being non-neutral you are really getting the rough end of traps and monster initiative. I think the trap thing definitely makes exploring the dungeon less fun / take longer, since disabling traps gives a lot of exp.

There's also elements of luck, like not getting Pariah-lucky, and possibly some elements of efficient play in regards to teleport spells, getting to the more exp- and loot-rich areas and getting out without having to trek through quite as much dungeon.

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