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> About the chances of monsters joining..
Keltosh
post Aug 20 2005, 10:12 PM
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Edited tongue.gif

Well, I used most of the evening catching up on the various topics around the forums, obviousy only reading those that seems most interesting (I don't have time to read, like, the last 8 and a half months worth of posts and threads biggrin.gif)
I also made a search but it seems that this info I'd like to have is nowhere in the forums yet. So here I go.... (Yeah I asked once, but I'd like more precise answers, and reviving a 9 months old thread.... ugh)

I've always been interested in companions, and since in my "hardcore" game I think I'll need to use them, I thought I'd ask.
What I'd like to know are, if somebody knows them, some hard data / formulas on the chances of monsters joining.

In the mordor help file it is stated that a high charisma helps you in acquiring companions, and even in meeting non hostile mosnter. From what I remember from the old forum, you'll always find that evil monsters are attacking you, so your only chance with those is soul entrapment. Provided they're not charm resistant of course.

I'll now proceed to the questions. I know I'm asking something pretty specific, but there's no harm done in asking after all. (and maybe Gaiacat has some formula for it. By the way, hi Gaiacat. I never talked to you but I really like your posted formulas biggrin.gif Provided they weren't lost with your pc failure. Ouch. Sorry to read about that ...)

Now, let us suppose that you meet a group of monsters which are not evil.
What are the chances of them being pacified? Does this really depends from charisma? Does it depends from monster level or character level? And what are the chances the a monster actually joins you?
And supposing that charisma do counts, should you have the character with the most charisma in the first place in the party, or selected, or both? If I remember correctly you need to have them selected.. but also in first place?

And as for my drem companions.. hmmm spoilers ahead biggrin.gif

A Lamurian High Priestress, or Asteryex , or even a Phoenix biggrin.gif. Of these three the most likely is the Lamuria High Priestress. After all, you can actually meet her with a certain frequency biggrin.gif. The LEAST likely.. you already know it, don't you? The Phoenix biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by aardless: Oct 9 2012, 07:37 PM


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GaiaCaT
post Aug 21 2005, 12:06 AM
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Kay, I tried looking for it and found some code, but it looks kinda odd.
Random = 1 to 3000
Chance = Unmodified (or natural) Charisma * 10 - (SpawnLevel - 1) * 10
If Random <= Chance, then 1 to [4 or Max Monsters in group, whichever is lowest] offers to join, even distribution.

This turns out to be:
(Charisma + 1 - SpawnLevel) in 300 chance of monster(s) joining.

Alignment of monster must be: neutral or same as selected character.
Character's current Guild Level must be equal or greater than monster Guild Level.
Good monsters will only join Good characters.
Neutral monsters will join any character.
Evil monsters will always spawn hostile, so, no chance for those.

Good Monster will never be hostile to a Good character, and always be hostile to Neutral/Evil characters.
Neutral Monsters have a 60% chance of being hostile to any character.
Evil Monsters will always be hostile.


And Heyas Keltosh *huggles Keltosh*
Never talked to me, cuz I only recently joined, didn't know Mordor community was still alive.
Been a bit slow on "secrets" after PC Failure, took time to rebuild everything, but, things turned out for the better.
Got a new HD yesterday (a gift ^^), and finally got enough money for a DVD-Burner, so backup problems shouldn't be a problem anymore.
Also dedicated more time to ADOM. It's hard, not very beginner-friendly, and very unforgiving, but somehow I can't stop playing.

I read about your Hardcore Attempt. (Y)
I have a similar solo character going, although my version of Hardcore includes no forfeiting quests.
My previous Hardcore Solo Human was lost to a Nastrum on Level 3 :'(
I hope her death was quick and without pain.
Got a HC Osiri running around on Level 2 now, has the bonus of 2 extra statpoints, and some very nice natural resistances.

GaiaCaT sets mode: +coffee GaiaCaT

This post has been edited by GaiaCaT: Aug 21 2005, 07:02 PM


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Keltosh
post Aug 21 2005, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 02:06 AM)
This turns out to be:
(Charisma + 1 - SpawnLevel) in 300 chance of monster(s) joining.
Alignment of monster must be: neutral or same as selected character.
Good monsters will only join Good characters.
Neutral monsters will join any character.
Evil monsters will always spawn hostile, so, no chance for those.


Luckily I have a good gnome biggrin.gif
Hmm I suppose spawn level means the current level of the dungeon (plus eventual stud square) and not first level of appearance

If it is so, all monsters on a said level (for example 15, not studded) have the same % of offering to join you, provided you find them pacified.
So, supposing you have charisma, say, 28. -> 28+1-15 -> 14/300 ~ 4.66%
For a first level monster instead
28+1-1=28/300 ~9.3%
Guess I really need to stock on items that bring my wisdom up biggrin.gif

QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 02:06 AM)
And Heyas Keltosh *huggles Keltosh*
Never talked to me, cuz I only recently joined, didn't know Mordor community was still alive.
Been a bit slow on "secrets" after PC Failure, took time to rebuild everything, but, things turned out for the better.


Glad to hear it. And always glad to meet a fellow fan of Mordor tongue.gif

QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 02:06 AM)
I read about your Hardcore Attempt. (Y)
I have a similar solo character going, although my version of Hardcore includes no forfeiting quests.
My previous Hardcore Solo Human was lost to a Nastrum on Level 3 :'(
I hope her death was quick and without pain.
Got a HC Osiri running around on Level 2 now, has the bonus of 2 extra statpoints, and some very nice natural resistances.


You're harde than me it seems. biggrin.gif Actually I thought about that too, but what if you get quested for something impossible? Like relatively early in the game, a swashbuckler... Also, I play with a party.... So, I can only bow to your dedication ohmy.gifk:

QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 02:06 AM)
I'll edit in the pacified chance when I find it.
GaiaCaT sets mode: +coffee GaiaCaT
*


Thanks a lot biggrin.gif After that maybe I can do a small spreadsheet that calculate chances to find a pacified monster offering to join up depending on charisma and monster level. Assuming of course that you don't want to do that. Sooner or later you should condense all your great formulas in one nice spreadsheet bleh.gif

On a side note it seems really stupid that the charisma taken into consideration is the one of the selected character. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.... I hope that the forthcoming MordorXP will somehow address this problem...

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Aug 21 2005, 12:36 AM


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GaiaCaT
post Aug 21 2005, 01:20 AM
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QUOTE (Keltosh @ Aug 21 2005, 01:36 AM)
Hmm I suppose spawn level means the current level of the dungeon (plus eventual stud square) and not first level of appearance

Uhmmm, SpawnLevel is the "Level" value found in Wabbit's Editor, so if Sun Dragons somehow appeared on Floor 1, you'd still need 15+ Cha to have a chance of them joining you.
QUOTE (Keltosh @ Aug 21 2005, 01:36 AM)
You're harde than me it seems. biggrin.gif Actually I thought about that too, but what if you get quested for something impossible? Like relatively early in the game, a swashbuckler...

No quest is impossible, except for the Dragon Turtle one?
So, just alot of patience (levelling other guilds), or an adrenalin-filled adventure to a floor I'm not ready for ^^
In case of Dragon Turtle Quest...Can just hope character achieved a decent Level before before getting that one.
QUOTE (Keltosh @ Aug 21 2005, 01:36 AM)
On a side note it seems really stupid that the charisma taken into consideration is the one of the selected character. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.... I hope that the forthcoming MordorXP will somehow address this problem...

It's a bit flawed, yes.
I'd like to see Good monsters remain peaced and offering to join a Good character in a G/N party.
And add more "accidental" hits to Neutral characters, maybe same for Neutral Companions vs Evil characters biggrin.gif


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Nudibranch
post Aug 21 2005, 03:42 AM
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T'Mana is the only impossible quest I've ever been assigned... 7 times. ranting.gif

I think you won't ever be quested for an item or monster from below Level 10.


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Keltosh
post Aug 21 2005, 08:13 AM
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QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 03:20 AM)
Uhmmm, SpawnLevel is the "Level" value found in Wabbit's Editor, so if Sun Dragons somehow appeared on Floor 1, you'd still need 15+ Cha to have a chance of them joining you.

So it basically uses the first level of appearance. That is better actually, for many monsters keep appearing at lower levels biggrin.gif. Anyway, I thought that dragon appeared first on lvl 15 (stated on Henderson's site), so shouldn't it be at least charisma 16? tongue.gif

EDIT: DOh I stand corrected. It's 15 Like Gaiacat said!

At any rate, I can't seem to download the Wabbvit's editor from the site. Anyone care to mail it to me? Or give me another link? I don't know why but when I click on the download link nothing happens. Ok probably I set the security settings too high.. but I don't want to disable everything and then start all over from scratch..

QUOTE (GaiaCaT @ Aug 21 2005, 03:20 AM)
No quest is impossible, except for the Dragon Turtle one?
So, just alot of patience (levelling other guilds), or an adrenalin-filled adventure to a floor I'm not ready for ^^
In case of Dragon Turtle Quest...Can just hope character achieved a decent Level before before getting that one.

Might be true, but it means you're still more patient than me. Maybe I'll do it like you if I ever try to solo the game.

QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Aug 21 2005, 05:42 AM)
T'Mana is the only impossible quest I've ever been assigned... 7 times.  ranting.gif
I think you won't ever be quested for an item or monster from below Level 10.
*



Well that is a good thing. Imagine being quested for a phoenix biggrin.gif

Anyway, this means I'll have to keep the gnome mage selected when crawling around the lower levels of the dungeons. And I wanted to keep the thief selected, shuush. Oh, well, at least the mage won't be in the frontline so I'll still be able to go around quickly. ok.gif

This post has been edited by aardless: Oct 9 2012, 07:37 PM


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Nudibranch
post Aug 21 2005, 06:47 PM
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I believe the value used for Charisma in the formula is unmodified, i.e, no item bonuses are included.

You left out one thing, GaiaCaT: the current guild level of the character has to be at least as high as the monster's guild level. So you have to be at least Level 400 before you'll ever get a 'j'oin offer from an Asteryex...

This post has been edited by Nudibranch: Aug 21 2005, 07:32 PM


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GaiaCaT
post Aug 21 2005, 07:07 PM
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Corrections added.

Thank You Nudi :x
Nice to have you to catch any errors getting past the CaT-Filter which apparently has very large holes...
It wasn't really left out, just didn't catch it first time, since I've been buried in the chest code for a while.
It appears to be correct, but doesn't match up with No-Drop observations (*small hint*)


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Nudibranch
post Aug 21 2005, 07:33 PM
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There's one formula left to figure out: what causes initially Peaced monsters to spontaneously attack. This only happens when your Charisma is below 15 or so, so it's only very new (non-legacy) characters that tend to experience this problem.


Back when I spent about a week collecting every monster I could for my Confinement, I made a list of monsters that could and couldn't be charmed.

This is an incomplete list of Neutral monsters that are uncharmable but can in theory 'j'oin your party (I only included ones that hadn't joined my party already):

aboleth (1)
red gremlin (2)
dwarven lord (4)
orange gremlin (4)
dryad (5)
pegan lizard (5)
twisted elf (5)
yellow gremlin (6)
slippery mire (7)
jubilex (7)
morey bilk (7)
hooded thief (7)
gythek lizard (8)
green gremlin (8)
sentinal (8)
violet fungus (9)
blue gremlin (10)
purple gremlin (12)
elven lord (13)
dragon turtle (bull!) (14)
indigo gremlin (14)
dragon king (15)
dragon queen (15)
great white (15)
lamurian mage (15)
lamurian lord (15)
lamurian high priestess (15)
destroyer of the deep (15)
warlord (15)
black gremlin (yeah, right!) (16)
t'lanea (16)


These are uncharmable Good monsters that will only offer to join a Good character:

spell binder (7)
Wil 'O Wisp (8)
griffin (11)
phoenix (bull!) (16)


And these are uncharmable Evil monsters that will never join:

slave driver
goblin lord
zbrat
pixie
lynch demon
shadow of death
daemon lord
demon prince
poltergeist
flame devil
asmodeus
phantasmal mist
black mist
giant i'ssus
flame dragon
shadow dragon
scylla
walking corpse
corpser
vampire
minion of death
vampire lord
reaper of souls
minotaur
doppleganger
demonist
illusion master
magi lord
mind twister
ninja
master ninja
shadow ninja


One other monster deserves mention: the T'Mana, which in theory can be charmed, but has never been sighted by anyone and is presumed extinct.


When going companion-hunting, I noticed that encounters with more than one group never offered to 'j'oin. Some people have contradicted me on this, but it seems extremely rare at the very least. Otherwise I would have gotten a Red Gremlin to 'j'oin by now.


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BeefontheBone
post Aug 21 2005, 07:36 PM
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Doesn't the (incidentally apallingly full of spelling errors) manual say Red Gremlins can't join, or did I imagine that?


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A. J. Raffles
post Aug 21 2005, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (BeefontheBone @ Aug 21 2005, 07:36 PM)
Doesn't the (incidentally apallingly full of spelling errors) manual say Red Gremlins can't join, or did I imagine that?

Hmm, either you're imagining things or the manual was wrong, then. I'm positive that I've had at least two Red Gremlins join me.huh.gif


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BeefontheBone
post Aug 21 2005, 08:43 PM
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maybe it just says they're charm resistant.


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A. J. Raffles
post Aug 21 2005, 09:11 PM
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Yes, that's right, but charm resistant monsters can still join you (although they only do so once in a blue moon, obviously).


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Crusher Junior
post Aug 25 2005, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Keltosh @ Aug 20 2005, 08:36 PM)
On a side note it seems really stupid that the charisma taken into consideration is the one of the selected character. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.... I hope that the forthcoming MordorXP will somehow address this problem...
*


How is that stupid? It makes sense to offer to join the selecter character, although it doesn't make sense that it can still join if you chose a different character after meeting it.


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A. J. Raffles
post Aug 25 2005, 06:00 AM
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It's still a bit illogical, though: so a monster would gladly join a bunch of ugly mean-looking trolls as long as they're accompanied by one charming little gnome? You'd think the other party members would be a bit off-putting...


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The description-writers' mantra (as formulated by Beef):
No more imbuing unless it's really necessary...

http://www.reloaded.org/

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No more finals-stress - what am I going to do with myself??
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Keltosh
post Aug 25 2005, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (A. J. Raffles @ Aug 25 2005, 08:00 AM)
It's still a bit illogical, though: so a monster would gladly join a bunch of ugly mean-looking trolls as long as they're accompanied by one charming little gnome? You'd think the other party members would be a bit off-putting...
*


Actually I wasn't clear enough. What I meant is that in theory the charisma used in a party should be the highest one, since that is the character negotiating and such, and not the one fo the selected character. tongue.gif
But at any rate, I DO hope that in MordorXP the charisma used is the modified one, not the real one. I mean it makes sense, since you DO appear more charismatic. And right now, the one used is the real one, not the modified one. Which basically makes all the charisma-enhancing items useless.


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BeefontheBone
post Aug 25 2005, 08:20 AM
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Except for helping you meet spell requirements, anyway.


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Keltosh
post Aug 25 2005, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE (BeefontheBone @ Aug 25 2005, 10:20 AM)
Except for helping you meet spell requirements, anyway.
*


True but after some tomes of leadership, that's not really a problem. My point is.. after some while, they are completely useless....


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Nudibranch
post Aug 25 2005, 08:21 PM
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There's still a chance modified Charisma influences the outcome of Charm spells (I doubt it, though), or how well-bound they are. GaiaCaT has yet to unravel the formulas pertaining to charming and binding.


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fart642000
post Aug 25 2005, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Keltosh @ Aug 25 2005, 04:12 AM)
Actually I wasn't clear enough. What I meant is that in theory the charisma used in a party should be the highest one, since that is the character negotiating and such, and not the one fo the selected character. tongue.gif


i agree with AJ on this one blink.gif would a cat come over to you wanting to be petted if your friends nearby look like things that might want to kill it?

QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Aug 25 2005, 04:21 PM)
There's still a chance modified Charisma influences the outcome of Charm spells (I doubt it, though)

GaiaCaT has yet to unravel the formulas pertaining to charming and binding.


generally aren't charm spells just hit or miss? (although i only use the charm all spell)

wish you luck gaiaCaT ohmy.gifk:


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