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> Mordor Weapon Guide *Spoiler*, Original post by GrobbleWobble
grobblewobble
post Feb 1 2006, 02:12 PM
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Ok, damage calculator finished.

It yielded some amazing results. Weapon damage modifier is not as dominant in the formula as I used to think. My deepest apologies, Sknig. I should have listened to you.

I have started with the Ninja guild. That's one of the easiest, as they have fairly limited item access and can't use shields. To my pleasant surprise, the damage calculations indicated that a lot of those hands weapons are actually usefull! w00t.gif

Here is the improved Ninja weapon guide:

QUOTE
Format: best choice, second best, and so on.
When to switch weapons because of weapon resistance depends on circumstances. A solo character will probably have little problems with weapon resistance, while a legacy character in a high-level party could run into resistances extremely fast.
Note that critical hits are more damaging than backstabs, so a critical hit bonus is better than a backstab bonus.

Ninja:

1: steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, hands
11: steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, iron sword
17: steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, initiate's hands, iron sword
28: katana, thief sword, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, initiate's hands, cutlass
39: katana, thief sword, wicked blade**, steel dagger**
44: magic hands, wicked blade, steel dagger
50: magic hands, crystal sword, wicked blade, steel dagger
56: (+1 guild swing now)
67: magic hands, crystal sword, adamantite dagger**
83: dominator, master's hands**, adamantite sword**
122: (+2 guild swings now)
128: mithril dagger, master's hands, adamantite sword
139: hands of death, mithril sword, mithril dagger
167: avenger, hands of death, mithril sword
178: avenger, sabre blade**, hands of death, mithril sword
195: avenger, hands of slaying**, vampire fang**, sabre blade**
222: sword of slaying, hands of slaying, vampire fang
250: hands of destruction, sword of slaying
267: (+3 guild swings now)
334: dagger of swiftness, hands of destruction, sword of slaying
417: sword of flames

*: You will probably be allowed to use this item because of nomad levels.
**: This weapon may be better due to weapon resistance.

In case you wonder why I rated dagger of swiftness higher than hands of destruction, it's because the dagger gives +9 defense.

EDIT:
The thief guild was not too hard either. The surprise here is vorpal blade vs dagger of swiftness. It turns out the average high-level thief is better off using the former. At the cost of a few points of damage your thief gains +1 dex, which means less failed traps and more initiative to the party. I will definitely start using it. When I find one. bleh.gif
QUOTE
Thief:

1: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, hands
5: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger**, lethe dagger**, iron dagger**
24: thief sword, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, iron dagger
33: thief sword, wicked blade**, steel dagger**
57: thief sword, wicked blade**, adamantite dagger**
109: mithril dagger, adamantite dagger
124: shadow's blade, mithril dagger
152: shadow's blade, sabre blade**
167: shadow's blade, vampire fang**
238: vorpal blade, vampire fang
286: vorpal blade, dagger of swiftness, vampire fang

*: You will probably be allowed to use this item because of nomad levels
**: this weapon may be better because of weapon resistant monsters


This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Feb 1 2006, 03:58 PM


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Mongo
post Feb 1 2006, 06:19 PM
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Excellent work as always grobble ohmy.gifk: And thank you for doing ninja and thief first as they are 2/3 and 2/4 of the two current parties I'm levelling up.


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Keltosh
post Feb 1 2006, 07:23 PM
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Indeed excellent as always. The classes I'm most curious about are paladin, mage and sorceror smile.gif I hope you'll do them soon smile.gif

P.S. Well, the forum is a veritable trove of esoteric knowledge about mordor but honestly.. it's all very scattered. Someone should take the time, collect it all somehow and then put up a site smile.gif I'd do it if I had the time.. I might once I do smile.gif


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Braindead
post Feb 1 2006, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (Keltosh @ Feb 1 2006, 08:23 PM)
P.S. Well, the forum is a veritable trove of esoteric knowledge about mordor but honestly.. it's all very scattered. Someone should take the time, collect it all somehow and then put up a site smile.gif I'd do it if I had the time.. I might once I do smile.gif
*

I don't want to say too much yet, but this site will be undergoing drastic changes (very) soon which should make this possible... wink.gif


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aardless
post Feb 1 2006, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Feb 1 2006, 03:12 PM)
Note that critical hits are more damaging than backstabs, so a critical hit bonus is better than a backstab bonus.
*

True, however according to Gaiacat's formulas, your chance of backstabbing is intrinsicly higher than the chance of hitting critically, so the advantage of the latter isn't as big as it may look at first sight.

What surprises me the most is the fact that regular hands are better than, say, bronze sword. huh.gif I only use hands to quickly dispatch slaves.

Excellent find on the vorpal! ohmy.gifk: I can't believe it was wrongfully bashed for soooo long. dry.gif


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Keltosh
post Feb 1 2006, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Braindead @ Feb 1 2006, 09:38 PM)
I don't want to say too much yet, but this site will be undergoing drastic changes (very) soon which should make this possible... wink.gif


You know, the forum really made my day today smile.gif and this is the last bit of good news. between the mordorxp update (I'll go to comment there soon smile.gif ), the january results, the melee damage calculator by grobblewobble.. biggrin.gif Need I say more? smile.gif

.. I seem to be using smiley's a lot today smile.gif

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Feb 1 2006, 07:50 PM


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Nudibranch
post Feb 1 2006, 11:22 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Feb 1 2006, 10:12 AM)
The thief guild was not too hard either. The surprise here is vorpal blade vs dagger of swiftness. It turns out the average high-level thief is better off using the former. At the cost of a few points of damage your thief gains +1 dex, which means less failed traps and more initiative to the party. I will definitely start using it. When I find one.  bleh.gif
*


I've found 63, would you care for one? bleh.gif

You forgot its biggest attraction: 7 swings! (Not that you usually get to use them...)


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Mongo
post Feb 2 2006, 12:05 AM
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omfg...63 blink.gif , i THOUGHT i had played this game a lot, I've found 3 now, 1 10 years ago and 2 in the last week or so, Nudi...you DO rule when it comes to Mordor lower level experience, I bow to you....


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grobblewobble
post Feb 2 2006, 09:16 AM
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Actually I did find one or two vorpal blades in the past with older parties, but not too long ago I had a fresh restart again. 63 vorpal blades, ouch.. shocked.gif

QUOTE ("aardless")
True, however according to Gaiacat's formulas, your chance of backstabbing is intrinsicly higher than the chance of hitting critically, so the advantage of the latter isn't as big as it may look at first sight.

Hmm, that's a very good point. It will take some work to quantify this.

QUOTE
What surprises me the most is the fact that regular hands are better than, say, bronze sword.  I only use hands to quickly dispatch slaves.

Actually I'm not so sure about those hands. For a starting legacy character it works very well, because you can kill all those level 1 encounters in 1 combat round. For a weaker starting character a bronze weapon may be better..

Finished the healer (and other magic-users) guide. Not much difference to the old version. I took out the high-level "early nomad daggers". It's hard to say when a character will be able to switch to dagger X. That depends on their other guild levels. A level 100 healer will probably be a high-level warrior or paladin as well.
QUOTE
Healer:

1: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, hands
6: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger**, lethe dagger**, iron dagger**
12: silver cross, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, iron dagger
36: silver cross, steel dagger**
60: cross of commanding, staff of striking, steel dagger
71: cross of commanding, staff of striking, adamantite dagger
107: cross of commanding, mithril-shod staff, adamantite dagger
178: (can use mystic shield now)
190: cross of commanding, sabre blade**
208: vampire fang
238: staff of helarno, vampire fang
357: staff of destruction, dagger of swiftness, staff of helarno
446: staff of destruction, cross of requnix

*: You will probably be allowed to use this item because of nomad levels.
**: This item may be better due to weapon resistances.
Note: You will probably be allowed to use the daggers A LOT earlier!


The guides for sorcerer, mage and wizard are exactly the same, only the levels would be lower.

EDIT:
Ok, I finally summoned up the courage to do the real job: warrior/paladin. The guides for the remaining guilds (seeker, scavenger, villain, nomad) are very similar.
There is an amazing lot of subtle trade-offs to consider here. Therefore, I do explicitly NOT claim that the order from "best" weapon to "worst" weapon is absolute. It can depend on your playing style, other classes, party, etcetera.

One surprise is that the holy sword is quite good, even though I've recently been saying what a bad weapon it is. whistling.gif The defense it gives is especially nice. You may even prefer it over a sword of slaying.

Another surprise is hammer of o'landra. It gives +2 to strength, which has notable influence on the damage it deals. For this same reason, giant king's hammer (also +2 str) is the most damaging weapon in the game. However, eliminator comes very close, and I think the additional swings of this weapon weighs more.

Oh, and another point is Delvar's War Axe. It appears a crystal sword is superior, as it gives +18 defense in return for a minor decrease in damage.

QUOTE
Warrior:

1: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, bronze battle axe, hands
4: dagger of stealth*, steel dagger**, lethe dagger**, iron battle axe**
9: steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, iron hammer
17: war hammer, steel dagger*, lethe dagger*, iron hammer
31: war hammer, steel mace**, steel dagger**
35: war hammer, steel mace**, steel sword**
39: crystal sword, steel mace, steel sword
44: crystal sword, staff of striking, steel mace, steel sword
65: dominator, crystal sword, adamantite mace**, adamantite sword**, staff of striking
78: mithril-shod staff**, dominator, adamantite mace**, adamantite sword**
91: (+1 guild swing now)
100: mithril-shod staff, mithril dagger, adamantite mace, adamantite sword
109: mithril mace, mithril sword, mithril-shod staff
131: avenger, mithril mace, mithril sword
153: avenger, holy sword***, vampire fang**
166: avenger, giant king's hammer**, holy sword***, vampire fang**
174: avenger, giant king's hammer**, holy sword***, sword of slaying**, staff of helarno**
218: hammer of o'landra, giant king's hammer, holy sword***, mace of disruption, sword of slaying
262: hammer of o'landra, lightning blade, giant king's hammer
324: (+2 guild swings now)
327: sword of flames, hammer of o'landra, barrier battle axe, lightning blade, giant king's hammer
349: sword of flames, eliminator

*: You MAY be allowed to use this item because of nomad levels
**: this weapon may be better because of weapon resistant monsters
***: in case you play a paladin


This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Feb 3 2006, 11:43 AM


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Nudibranch
post Feb 2 2006, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Feb 2 2006, 05:16 AM)
Oh, and another point is Delvar's War Axe. It appears a crystal sword is superior, as it gives +18 defense in return for a minor decrease in damage.


+18? Oh, right, +6 and +12 for the shield.

I think more than once I've resorted to using Delvar's War Axe on 6 and below, because it's easier to find than Adamantite/Crystal swords. But I had probably found at least one Steel weapon by then and neglected it...

For the Paladin/Warrior chart you have to add a notes that the axes and Elminator are Warrior-only.


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holeofcow
post Feb 3 2006, 12:16 AM
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I must say Grobble...You don't waste anytime putting these things together. Good job.
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grobblewobble
post Feb 3 2006, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE
I think more than once I've resorted to using Delvar's War Axe on 6 and below, because it's easier to find than Adamantite/Crystal swords. But I had probably found at least one Steel weapon by then and neglected it...

A staff of striking is also quite clearly superior. But the choice between a steel sword/mace or DWA is not so obvious, now that you mention it. DWA deals some 5-ish % more damage, while a steel weapon+shield gives +12 defense. My guess is the latter is better, but this is certainly open to debate. One should keep in mind that a little extra damage can make the difference between getting multiple swings or not.

QUOTE
For the Paladin/Warrior chart you have to add a notes that the axes and Elminator are Warrior-only.

Hmm.. at first I wanted to make a warrior guide and leave the guides for paladin, seeker, villain etc out, because they would be practically the same. But that would mean I'd have to leave out the holy sword. The paladin guild has the same level requirements as warrior, so I thought it was a good idea to make it a warrior/paladin guide. Adding notes for the axes that they are warrior-only seems a bit inconsistent, however, because this guide is also intended for other guilds who can use axes.
Another idea would be to say it is a nomad/warrior/paladin/seeker/villain/scavenger weapon guide, but that could be confusing because those guilds have different level requirements.
EDIT: Ok, changed this, see above.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Feb 3 2006, 11:43 AM


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Keltosh
post Feb 6 2006, 08:08 AM
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I was wondering.. are two-handed weapons really worth the effort? As of now, following the melee calculator, I have an average on 100 damage for mithril mace for my warrior and 112 for the avenger. Is this really worth sacrificying a whole 15 points of defense? (21 once I find swords of slaying...)
I made some suppositions about strenght and attack of lvl 500 giant warriors, and the difference is something like 25 points of damage. 190 or so sword of slaying, 215 for avenger, 218 for sword of flames. These are all averages. But, supposing you have spectral shield, you're sacrificing 24 points of defense for avenger, 12 for sword of flames. Ok maybe the sword of flames is still worth it.. but apart from it, I wonder at the usefulness of 2-handed weapons....

Consider in fact that defense also helps avoiding many of the attacks described here! (spoilers) http://mordor.uni.cc/forum/index.php?showt...1228

And also, I think you will see few multiple swings attacks anyway. Just my opinion, there are people out there with much more experience than me on lower levels, and I am waiting for their opinion on this smile.gif

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Feb 6 2006, 08:56 AM


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grobblewobble
post Feb 6 2006, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE
I was wondering.. are two-handed weapons really worth the effort? As of now, following the melee calculator, I have an average on 100 damage for mithril mace for my warrior and 112 for the avenger. Is this really worth sacrificying a whole 15 points of defense? (21 once I find swords of slaying...)

I consider it an interesting trade-off. As I said before, one should keep in mind that a little extra damage can make the difference between getting your multiple swings or not.

QUOTE
And also, I think you will see few multiple swings attacks anyway.

That depends on many factors. How deep do you usually go? What race are you? Etcetera.

The choice can also depend on your other classes. If you're also a high-level sorcerer or healer, that's a good reason to go for a shield.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Feb 6 2006, 10:04 AM


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Keltosh
post Feb 6 2006, 10:06 AM
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Sorry, I meant you will see few multiple swings once you reach the lowest levels, where the monsters have a lot of hit points in general. Or against strong and dangerous monsters in general. One simply does not get , for example, a lot of multiple swings against silent eagles, unless they are not a danger anymore.
(Yes I am fixated on silent eagles, they are the next big hurdle I must overcome. But you can change that with golden eagles or gargantuons or spectral dragons or flame devils if you prefer smile.gif)
(Actually considering their hit points, you probably will simply NOT see multiple swings against them. Killing them in one hit.. welll...... it takes a critical)

My point is, most if not all the TRULY dangerous monsters cannot be killed in one hit usually, so maybe a little extra defense against them is perhaps better than killing weaker monsters faster.

This is the point I would like you to consider. However, it is a question more than an opinion smile.gif I am really undecided on this smile.gif

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Feb 6 2006, 10:17 AM


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Mongo
post Feb 6 2006, 02:51 PM
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@grobble or anyone really - I must obviously be missing something, but I see you choose the Sword of Slaying over the Staff of Helarno, while I realize the .1 diff in modifiers is not great, the +6 in attack is not equal to the critical bonus over the long haul??? I'm not a math guy so the formulas are a touch over my head most times, so please make it simple whistling.gif TIA


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Keltosh
post Feb 6 2006, 03:25 PM
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If I remember correctly, you do one more damage averagely for every 15-16 attack points. Take this as a tentative number smile.gif. So it's quite negligible compared to strength, character level and such...
On the other hand, the critical modifier means you'll do something like 5.5% more critical hits with a sword of slaying. I think this is why he chose the sword smile.gif

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Feb 6 2006, 03:26 PM


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grobblewobble
post Feb 6 2006, 05:01 PM
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Let me repeat:
QUOTE
There is an amazing lot of subtle trade-offs to consider here. Therefore, I do explicitly NOT claim that the order from "best" weapon to "worst" weapon is absolute.

The choice between Sword of Slaying and Staff of Helarno is a good example. My guess is that a crit bonus is (very slightly) better than the +0.1 DM of the staff, but the choice is a bit arbitrary. The +6 attack is a very small effect and doesn't really need to be considered.


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Mongo
post Feb 6 2006, 05:17 PM
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thank you both for responding, I appreciate it...I've always wondered about the dam mod vs critical bonus


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post Feb 6 2006, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Feb 2 2006, 09:45 PM)
Another idea would be to say it is a nomad/warrior/paladin/seeker/villain/scavenger weapon guide, but that could be confusing because those guilds have different level requirements.
EDIT: Ok, changed this, see above.
*


Where?


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