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> Mordor Weapon Guide *Spoiler*, Original post by GrobbleWobble
Necromis
post Oct 12 2004, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE ( grobblewobble Posted: May 10 2004 @ 09:19 AM )
Warrior guild:
1: Hands / Bronze Battle Axe
5: Hands / Iron Battle Axe
9: Iron Hammer
13: Dagger of Stealth / Iron Hammer
17: War Hammer
43: War Hammer / Crystal Sword / Staff of Striking
52: Delvar's War Axe
65: Dominator
78: Dominator / Mithril-shod Staff
109: Mithril-shod Staff / Mithril Battle Axe
131: Avenger
165: Avenger / Giant King's Hammer
218: Hammer of O'Landra / Avenger / Giant King's Hammer
327: Barrier Battle Axe
349: Eliminator

I envy the guy who actually has a Hammer of O'Landra at warrior 218. 

The nomad guild follows the same route, except that it has lower numbers, has Thief Sword as an alternative for War Hammer and ends at level 199.

For the other guilds I will add (early) daggers, in case you level Nomad as your second guild after level 30.

Ninja guild:
1: Hands / Steel Dagger
17: Initiate's hands / Steel Dagger
27: Katana
50: Katana / Crystal Sword
73: Katana / Crystal Sword / Mithril Dagger
83: Dominator
111: Dominator / Vampire Fang
139: Dominator / Mithril Sword / Vampire Fang
166: Avenger
250: Avenger / Hands of Destruction
417: Sword of Flames

Thief guild:
1: Hands / Steel Dagger
24: Thief Sword
73: Thief Sword / Mithril Dagger
101: Sabre Blade
111: Vampire Fang
123: Shadow's Blade / Vampire Fang
190: Shadow's Blade / Dagger of Swiftness
238: Vorpal Blade / Dagger of Swiftness

Healer guild:
1: Hands / Steel Dagger
11: Silver Cross
38: Silver Cross / Adamantite Dagger
60: Cross of Commanding
111: Cross of Commanding / Mithril-shod Staff / Vampire Fang
190: Cross of Commanding / Mithril-shod Staff / Dagger of Swiftness
238: Staff of Helarno / Dagger of Swiftness
357: Staff of Destruction
446: Cross of Requnix


The other guilds are very similar to either warrior or healer.


QUOTE ( Taffer Posted: May 10 2004 @ 08:08 PM )
There's also Master's Hands under Ninja. Those dang hands again!


QUOTE ( grobblewobble Posted: May 10 2004 @ 11:30 PM )
For each of the hands, I weighed it's pro's and con's against the other weapons. So why didn't I choose most of them? One by one:

Magic Hands level 43, 3 swings, [1.3] 6/0
Katana: level 27, 2 swings, [1.6] 6/0 + Crit bonus.

Master's Hands: level 83, 3 swings, [1.4] 9/0
Dominator: level 83, 2 swings, [2.0] 6/6 + Crit bonus.

Hands of Death: level 139, 4 swings, [1.5] 12/0
Weapon resistances can be reason to stop using Dominator now.
Mithril Sword: level 139, 3 swings, [1.6] 12/3 + Crit bonus.*

Hands of Slaying: level 194, 5 swings, [1.6] 15/0
Avenger: level 166, 3 swings, [2.3] 15/3 + Crit bonus.

Hands of Destruction (6 swings and [1.8] 21/0)
is worth considering because it can kill level 16 weapon resistant monsters


*: At first sight this may look like an interesting trade-off. But at level 139, Ninja has 2 extra swings from their guild, which means you are choosing between 5 or 6 swings. That is too little difference to make up for the higher damage modifier and crit bonus of a Mithril Sword. 


QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles Posted: May 11 2004 @ 08:16 AM )
How come you're suggesting the Vorpal Blade as a desirable weapon for high level thieves, Grobble? Doesn't it have a lower damage modifier than the Dagger of Swiftness?


QUOTE ( grobblewobble Posted: May 11 2004 @ 10:05 AM )
Ah, that's something I should have explained. The point is that Vorpal blade gives +1 dex, maxing out your thiefing skill. So as a thief you might consider it.

At the other hand, the damage modifier of Dagger of Swiftness is 1.8, versus a meager 1.5 for the Vorpal Blade. So I guess it's not worth the dex bonus.

Perhaps Shadow's Blade (also gives +1 dex) is a more attractive alternative, even though some monsters are resistant to it.

Ironically, in Demise the Vorpal Blade is one of the best weapons in the game.


QUOTE ( scphillips Posted: Jun 1 2004 @ 10:35 PM )
k, this is probably a dumb question, but what do you mean with the daggers? how do you equip an item you can't normally equip while in a different class if you used nomand or something like that. 


QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles Posted: Jun 1 2004 @ 10:48 PM )
I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at, but daggers are non-class restricted weapons. That means that as long as you meet the minimum guild level requirement in one guild, it doesn't matter if you switch to another guild where your guild level is 1, you can still use that weapon. Does that answer your question?


QUOTE ( scphillips Posted: Jun 2 2004 @ 01:57 AM )
yeah, that's exactly my question, before that i was unsure of what class-restricted and non-class-restricted meant. 
   


QUOTE ( anomal Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 07:47 AM )
QUOTE ( grobblewobble Posted: May 10 2004 @ 09:19 AM  )


Healer guild:

111: Cross of Commanding / Mithril-shod Staff / Vampire Fang


Vampire Fang needs level 208



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Necromis
post Oct 13 2004, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE ( Keltosh Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 08:13 AM )
Not if you use the optimal hp route and bring up the nomad. i advise that as the nomad requires little experiene. For example, my trusty healer has a vampire fang equipped and he's much more effectiva that way .. 
   


QUOTE ( anomal Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 09:48 AM )
dont get it, what connection is between nomad level and using some weapon by healer

imho even when my character will be level 999 nomad and my actual guild will be healer (for example level 10) i cant use weapons that are useable on higher healer levels right ?


QUOTE ( Cowboy Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 09:52 AM )
If a weapon says not class restricted then you don't have to be currently in a guild to use it, it will check all your guild levels


QUOTE ( Keltosh Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 10:01 AM )
Basically, if an item is not class restricted, you can use it as long as you have at least one guild which meets the requirements.
There lies one of the great dvantage of bringing up the nomad, for once you do that, you can basically equip daggers, amulets, rings and some other items too regardless of which guild you're currently using. This is very useful if you make a multi-class character, since even when you start raising a low level character you can use those items.
For example my healer recently picked up the warrior.. and i had him use the Vampire's fang , ring of slendor etc from first level, since he's also a lv 119 nomad 


QUOTE ( anomal Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 10:32 AM )
why i didnt know this earlier :?

thanks guys


QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 11:21 AM )
That's why it's helpful to read that boring Mordor Help Lesson  :

QUOTE ((Mordor Help Lesson) )

An item is either Class Restricted or Not Class Restricted.  Class Restricted items mean that you must currently be a member of a guild that is allowed to use the item.  Not Class Restricted means that your current guild does not need to be able to use an item, but you must be a member of a guild that can use the item.  Guilds that are allowed to use an item are listed along with what level (in that particular guild) one has to be to use (or equip) the item.  For more information, see the Items section.


All daggers are Not Class Restricted, that's why so many people use them.



QUOTE ( Keltosh Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 12:36 PM )
Exactly. And also because the vampire fang has relatively low requirements (if you level up the nomad), is a good overall weapon that can hurt any monster in the game , has 4 swings, a backstab bonus and is easy to find compared to those high level weapons 
   


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Braindead
post Oct 13 2004, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE ( Braindead Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 01:40 PM )
QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles @ Sep 23 2004 @ 12:21 PM )


That's why it's helpful to read that boring Mordor Help Lesson  :

QUOTE ( (Mordor Help Lesson) )

An item is either Class Restricted or Not Class Restricted.  Class Restricted items mean that you must currently be a member of a guild that is allowed to use the item.  Not Class Restricted means that your current guild does not need to be able to use an item, but you must be a member of a guild that can use the item.  Guilds that are allowed to use an item are listed along with what level (in that particular guild) one has to be to use (or equip) the item.  For more information, see the Items section.


All daggers are Not Class Restricted, that's why so many people use them.



QUOTE ( (anomal) )
Vampir Fang needs level 208



Yes but anomal has a point why list at the level it is now, you should either list it as of the first level healer has it (208?) or at level 1 (since it is a non class restricted item)



QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 01:56 PM )
QUOTE ( Braindead @ Sep 23 2004 @ 12:40 PM  )


Yes but anomal has a point why list at the level it is now, you should either list it as of the first level healer has it (208?) or at level 1 (since it is a non class restricted item) 


I'm afraid that isn't true, Braindead. Not Class Restricted doesn't mean you can use it from level 1, it means you can use it if you meet the minimum level requirements in at least one of the guilds. Nomad has the lowest guild requirements, and for the Vampire Fang it's at level 111. So the level indicated in grobble's list is correct (he might have mentioned why it is that way, though).



QUOTE ( Cowboy Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 02:58 PM )
I think BD meant what to list in the weapon guide, I think that a non class restricted list with nomad levels should be added to the weapon guide (basically a list of daggers and nomad level)


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Braindead
post Oct 13 2004, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE ( Braindead Posted: Sep 23 2004 @ 03:39 PM )
QUOTE ( A. J. Raffles @ Sep 23 2004 @ 02:56 PM    )

QUOTE ( Braindead @ Sep 23 2004 @ 12:40 PM  )


Yes but anomal has a point why list at the level it is now, you should either list it as of the first level healer has it (208?) or at level 1 (since it is a non class restricted item) 


I'm afraid that isn't true, Braindead. Not Class Restricted doesn't mean you can use it from level 1, it means you can use it if you meet the minimum level requirements in at least one of the guilds. Nomad has the lowest guild requirements, and for the Vampire Fang it's at level 111. So the level indicated in grobble's list is correct (he might have mentioned why it is that way, though).



it does mean you can use it from level 1 healer if you are also a level 111 nomad.



QUOTE ( Cowboy @ Sep 23 2004 @ 03:58 PM )
I think BD meant what to list in the weapon guide, I think that a non class restricted list with nomad levels should be added to the weapon guide (basically a list of daggers and nomad level) 


indeed.



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grobblewobble
post Feb 22 2005, 02:11 PM
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First of all hello guys, I've been away too long.

So the question is: why list Vampire Fang at level 111 healer?

Let's quote myself:

"For the other guilds I will add (early) daggers, in case you level Nomad as your second guild after level 30."

In other words: Yes, a level 1 healer / level 111 nomad could use a Vampire Fang. But no one wants to get to level 111 nomad before reaching level 111 in another guild first. So I listed the best dagger you could use in case you decide to become a healer/nomad, who keeps his nomad level <= healer level.

Anyway, including a nomad table with the daggers is a good idea.


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Anthus
post Feb 23 2005, 12:44 AM
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grobblewobble!! welcome back!!!! wave.gif


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grobblewobble
post Feb 23 2005, 10:19 AM
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Hi Anthus! happy.gif

Time to post in the newbie / welcome to the board thread I guess.


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Sknig
post Oct 23 2005, 01:04 AM
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Hello all, first time posting. Just a comment about the Avenger recommendation for levels 130-200ish warriors... my warrior is at 167, and had been using mithril mace/shield of defence for a long time. I decided to give Avenger a try, and it doesn't seem to do much more damage than the mace. I could very well be wrong, being somewhat of a Mordor newb, but that's just how it seems to me.


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Keltosh
post Oct 24 2005, 09:35 AM
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QUOTE (Sknig @ Oct 23 2005, 03:04 AM)
Hello all, first time posting. Just a comment about the Avenger recommendation for levels 130-200ish warriors... my warrior is at 167, and had been using mithril mace/shield of defence for a long time. I decided to give Avenger a try, and it doesn't seem to do much more damage than the mace. I could very well be wrong, being somewhat of a Mordor newb, but that's just how it seems to me.
*


The avenger has a damage modifirer of 2.3, while the mithril mace hasa damage modifier of 1.7. As such, be sure there is a big difference. Also the avenger adds 3 more to your Attack.

Of course you'll be losing some defense but, for a warrior the most important thing is killing his enemies fast


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grobblewobble
post Oct 24 2005, 10:36 AM
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In fact, I didn't really consider the att/def of weapons much. In most cases, I think it is far less important than the damage modifier.

There may be some exceptions. For example, I heard someone (I think it was Nudibranch) comment that the Staff of Destruction is a better weapon for a very high level spellcaster than a Cross of Requnix. Because in this specific case, the greater defense bonus from the staff, in addition to the fact it is one-handed and allows themystic shield, is worth more than the (slightly) higher DM from Cross of Requnix. Spellcasters aren't really dependent on their weapon damage, anyway.
Still, if your spellcaster is also a high-level warrior, you may consider to use the cross anyway, IMO.

So Braindead, maybe you could change the line

"Healer 446: Cross of Requnix" into
"Healer 446: Staff of Destruction / Cross of Requnix"?

EDIT: On second thought, it can be removed (see below).

Now for the Avenger case. Sknig, I would like to suggest an experiment to you. Equip your warrior with the shield and mace. Make a solo trip into the dungeon and slay some fat monsters, like the minotaur, medusa and butcher. Write down how many hits it takes to kill each of them, and what the highest damage is that you deal without a critical hit.
Return to town, and equip your Avenger. Wait for the dungeon to respawn the monsters (or just add half an hour to your system clock) and do it again.

If this still doesn't show any difference, you would surprise many people.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 24 2005, 12:05 PM


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aardless
post Oct 24 2005, 11:29 AM
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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

It's obvious the Staff of Destruction beats the Cross anyday. Did you mean Staff of Helarno? huh.gif

@Sknig: the higher your attack, the smaller the effect of damage modifier is, in percentage. Although, all other things being equal, it's always better to have a higher damage modifier. All I can say is, try both combinations on a wider range of monsters.

If you've got a level 167 warrior, you're a newbie no more. wink.gif


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grobblewobble
post Oct 24 2005, 11:55 AM
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@ Aardless: strange, I was quite sure the Cross of Requnix had 2.2. Could you please double-check this with an editor?
EDIT: You are right. Sorry.

So uhm, Braindead, the line recommending Cross of Requnix can be removed.

The percentage influence of attack does rise a bit as your level rises, but if I'm not mistaken, you only deal about 0.1 extra point of damage for each additional point of attack, don't you? So even 100 extra points of attack-rating on a weapon would only result in 10 points of additional damage. blink.gif

So I can hardly believe attack-rating is anything to be reckoned with, in comparison with the supreme damage modifier of a weapon like the Avenger.

And I think trying the weapon on a wide variety of monsters makes it harder to see the difference quickly. If you just try monsters with a lot of hitpoints, you can compare the damage immediately.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 24 2005, 12:03 PM


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Keltosh
post Oct 24 2005, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 24 2005, 01:55 PM)
The percentage influence of attack does rise a bit as your level rises, but if I'm not mistaken, you only deal about 0.1 extra point of damage for each additional point of attack, don't you? So even 100 extra points of attack-rating on a weapon would only result in 10 points of additional damage.  blink.gif

So I can hardly believe attack-rating is anything to be reckoned with, in comparison with the supreme damage modifier of a weapon like the Avenger.

And I think trying the weapon on a wide variety of monsters makes it harder to see the difference quickly. If you just try monsters with a lot of hitpoints, you can compare the damage immediately.
*


I totally agree. And for warriors, it's really all about killing monsters as fast as possible. Killing a monster faster means you leave him fewer attacks. Which means generally less damage over time, and ALSO fewer draining, aging and petrifying attacks. Try to avoid those as much as you can ...
For the same reason, try to boost up your dexterity as much as possible. With a high damage modifier and high dexterity, you might be able to attack first and kill quite some monsters before they attack you back (not the laired monsters, but still... ). And not being attacked at all.. is the best defense biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Keltosh: Oct 24 2005, 12:34 PM


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grobblewobble
post Jan 29 2006, 07:04 PM
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A lot of time has passed since I created this weapon guide, and in the meanwhile a lot of new discoveries have been made. The 0-monster-defense bug has been discovered, as well as the complete and correct melee damage formulas, great job, Gaiacat!! ohmy.gifk:.

So I feel it's time to update the weaponguide. I may have attached to much importance to damage modifiers and payed too little attention to one-handed versus two-handed. For example, looking at the warrior table again I feel that staff of striking and crystal sword are definetely an improvement over a war hammer. They may even be better than DWA. Likewise, it is time to calculate how well combinations like Sknig's shield+mace setup really do, compared to an avenger.

Another point is that the "early daggers" from the nomad guild seem to cause more confusion than they do any good, so I think I want to remove them from the list.

Coming week I will do some calculations and try to improve the guide.

Any comments?


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post Jan 29 2006, 07:33 PM
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aardless
post Jan 29 2006, 08:30 PM
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Good luck in your calculations! A problem I have faced since Gaiacat unveiled the formula, is the high number of variables in the general damage formula. However since you'll have to use a broken-down approach to compare the weapons, you'll have only Att and Str as variables, which should make it manageable.


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Nudibranch
post Jan 29 2006, 11:26 PM
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One really important factor in weapon choice is Weapon Resistance. There are several great weapons from Level 2 (Warhammer, Silver Cross, Thief Sword) which stop working when you reach Level 6 (or Studs on 5). Ditto for 15.

Another problem is weapon/shield availability. You list the best weapons, but often, they aren't available unless you're playing with legacy characters. Some notes on common substitutes would make the Guide most useful. Maybe you should keep the daggers in, for that reason -- most spellcasters have to use them to cover the gaps when other available weapons aren't doing the trick.


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holeofcow
post Jan 30 2006, 01:10 AM
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Would it be possible to add to the list at what levels each weapon quits working? Or what level each weapon is considered to be?
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Mongo
post Jan 30 2006, 01:06 PM
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so, given the other current thread of A vs D, shouldn't there be some interesting trade-offs of high damage two handed weapons vs. slightly lower damage one handed weapons and shield set-ups? Or maybe a separate guide of those ?


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grobblewobble
post Jan 30 2006, 03:17 PM
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Thanx for the feedback, fellows.

Aardless - hopefully I can get away with raw estimates for str, att and such factors
Nudibranch - good point, after all not everybody finds a dominator before it becomes redundant
Holeofcow - I could add some notes below the list for this.
Mongo - just what I was thinking. I think I'll just add some one-handed alternatives, rather than making seperate "shield guides".

EDIT: to do the calculations by hand would be too cumbersome, so first I'm going to build a damage calculator.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Jan 31 2006, 01:36 AM


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