IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Town Stairs
MythrilZenith
post Sep 7 2019, 08:58 PM
Post #21


Soldier
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 233
Joined: 8-April 12
Member No.: 6,867
referrer:A google-search for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol maps led me here!



Reminds me something of the original Diablo - Every 4 floors there was a new shortcut to town that would open up.
I definitely would be interested in something like that in a Mordor-type game, but you're right in that there may need to be some changes in the types of objects allowed to institute this type of shortcut system - at least in terms of two-way shortcuts that get unlocked.

An easy trick for a one-way shortcut would be to just have a single-destination teleporter, though at the same time if we're putting shortcuts from the bottom of the dungeon to get all the way back to town it DOES kind of limit some of the enjoyable stress of the game - my clearest Mordor memories are always the ones where I got stranded near the bottom of the dungeon with no SP to teleport out and then had to claw my way back - especially times when I randomly hit a chute or teleporter.


--------------------
Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordion
post Sep 7 2019, 11:37 PM
Post #22


Explorer
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 111
Joined: 30-September 07
Member No.: 3,924
referrer:The Super Seer



QUOTE (korexus @ Sep 7 2019, 04:29 PM) *
Not Mordor-like at all, but I've been playing Yoku's Island recently, and it has a mechanic for this, which could be easily added (sparingly) to a Mordor clone.

You'll occasionally come across narrow places that are blocked by a boulder, or slanted obstacle. You can't push the blockage through from this side, but it's trivial to do from the other end.

You could imagine a new obstacle symbol on the map, which can be pushed around corridors, but is restricted by doors, and face-direction squares. (for extra fun, they could be removed by pushing them into a pit, possible removing the pit too.) This would allow you to add a puzzle element to the map, and force people to take a certain route on their first visit.

You would need to be careful that people couldn't destroy their dungeon, by getting obstacles stuck in corners that they need to be able to pass through.

Of course, this sort of approach doesn't fit well with a multi-user design. The simplest option there is 'You need a red key to enter this area'.

It would also be quite cool to have secret doors which can only be accessed from one side. - Even after they've been discovered., forcing people to take a different route on the way down and up.

korexus.


Sounds like a Sokoban/Mordor mashup.

This post has been edited by Mordion: Sep 7 2019, 11:37 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
korexus
post Sep 8 2019, 08:00 PM
Post #23


Voyager
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 151
Joined: 24-October 07
From: Reading
Member No.: 4,011
referrer:Google Search



QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 8 2019, 12:37 AM) *
Sounds like a Sokoban/Mordor mashup.


Very much so. It could make maps quite interesting, especially if rearranging blocks to get to one area forces you to remove access to another. And it could allow the restrictions to certain areas already mentioned.

I'd play it. It would get gimmicky if over-used though...


korexus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordion
post Sep 8 2019, 08:52 PM
Post #24


Explorer
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 111
Joined: 30-September 07
Member No.: 3,924
referrer:The Super Seer



QUOTE (korexus @ Sep 8 2019, 04:00 PM) *
Very much so. It could make maps quite interesting, especially if rearranging blocks to get to one area forces you to remove access to another. And it could allow the restrictions to certain areas already mentioned.

I'd play it. It would get gimmicky if over-used though...


korexus.


Back in high school I was designing a MUD/Mordor hybrid and the map was a 3d grid of cubes of material with walls, floors, ceilings in-between. So a water room would actually be a cube of water on the floor below and no floor on the current floor so you fall down. What I thought was the coolest feature was dirt areas that players could tunnel through. I now realize it wouldn't have worked multiplayer because the whole map would eventually be a lattice of tunnels.

I wonder if there's a way to make a game around tunneling out a dungeon from solid rock. Maybe there's a natural explanation for why M1 has such a weird layout.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
korexus
post Sep 8 2019, 09:30 PM
Post #25


Voyager
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 151
Joined: 24-October 07
From: Reading
Member No.: 4,011
referrer:Google Search



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_Fortress ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordion
post Sep 9 2019, 03:31 AM
Post #26


Explorer
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 111
Joined: 30-September 07
Member No.: 3,924
referrer:The Super Seer



QUOTE (korexus @ Sep 8 2019, 05:30 PM) *


I was thinking more along the lines of Dungeon Keeper but it would somehow make a Mordor dungeon. Dwarf fortress is too organic looking and expansive.

I keep wondering what kind of economic forces would have caused the Mordor dungeon to be so maze-like. In the real world it would just be a strip mine.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MythrilZenith
post Sep 12 2019, 05:43 PM
Post #27


Soldier
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 233
Joined: 8-April 12
Member No.: 6,867
referrer:A google-search for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol maps led me here!



QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 8 2019, 09:31 PM) *
I was thinking more along the lines of Dungeon Keeper but it would somehow make a Mordor dungeon. Dwarf fortress is too organic looking and expansive.

I keep wondering what kind of economic forces would have caused the Mordor dungeon to be so maze-like. In the real world it would just be a strip mine.


I always figured that the upper levels were more structured, more orderly, and that there were probably specific rooms created with different purposes as things went down (being dwarf mines instead of just a human strip-mine, they probably lived down here as well as working). And as you got lower and lower, things got more and more twisted by magic, until by a certain point (I always figured the teleporter between floor 8 and 9) you hit a point where you aren't *really* in the mine anymore, but in a twisted dungeon that took features of the mine and just completely messed with them until you got the chaotic madness that we have today.


--------------------
Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason
post Dec 21 2019, 07:27 PM
Post #28


Drifter
**

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 43
Joined: 29-April 19
Member No.: 8,719
referrer:Google



QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 4 2019, 08:57 PM) *
Etrian Odyssey has a similar shortcuts that can only be activate from the far side.

Unfortunately, doing such a thing in Mordor is impossible. The data for the walls is one value in-between the squares. Contrast that with the original Wizardry trilogy in which each room had a side of each wall and you could do one way shortcuts. They also had special rooms that required items in your inventory to proceed.

In Ultima III you could mark (brand?) your characters at special spots in the dungeon to permanently unlock various things.


The only problem with having one way doors and such is what do you display on the minimap for it? I think a teleporter does a better job of one way travel and makes more sense. A door from one side but a wall from the other doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Just like paper thin walls don't either. You're just exploiting features of the data structures because it's possible. Doesn't mean that's really such a good game design decision. So I'm not a fan of one way doors, unless there's some kind of technology behind it that makes it believable. Magic shouldn't be the explanation because it's too easy to just explain anything you can't any other way by calling it 'magic'. That's the lazy answer and we should try and do better than that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason
post Dec 21 2019, 07:48 PM
Post #29


Drifter
**

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 43
Joined: 29-April 19
Member No.: 8,719
referrer:Google



QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 8 2019, 10:31 PM) *
I was thinking more along the lines of Dungeon Keeper but it would somehow make a Mordor dungeon. Dwarf fortress is too organic looking and expansive.

I keep wondering what kind of economic forces would have caused the Mordor dungeon to be so maze-like. In the real world it would just be a strip mine.


With Dwarf Fortress, you make your own mines so it can be organic or not, it's up to you. Those huge underground caverns are pretty cool, though.

I think you give the map designer of Mordor too much credit. I'm sure he was just thinking about making something interesting to explore and play in rather than the reasoning behind why it was designed the way it was by the mine planners. I mean, isn't there some huge underground swamp at the lowest levels? And some temple? What's the point behind that? Older games usually don't make a whole lot of sense. They realized back then that fun was what was most important, not super amazing story and realism. If you can make solid fun in your game, then you can worry about adding some of that stuff, so long as it doesn't destroy the fun. Unreal Tournament is a good example of a solid fun game where a story was made for it but they made sure it didn't interfere with the fun. So it's a fun game, but the story is pretty stupid really. Better than a good story but a game that isn't really fun. If that's what you really want, there's books and movies that will always be better than what games can really do. Except for the one exception of immersion. Games have more potential in that regard but it's not an easy thing to really pull off well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordion
post Dec 22 2019, 01:46 AM
Post #30


Explorer
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 111
Joined: 30-September 07
Member No.: 3,924
referrer:The Super Seer



QUOTE (Jason @ Dec 21 2019, 02:27 PM) *
The only problem with having one way doors and such is what do you display on the minimap for it? I think a teleporter does a better job of one way travel and makes more sense. A door from one side but a wall from the other doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Just like paper thin walls don't either. You're just exploiting features of the data structures because it's possible. Doesn't mean that's really such a good game design decision. So I'm not a fan of one way doors, unless there's some kind of technology behind it that makes it believable. Magic shouldn't be the explanation because it's too easy to just explain anything you can't any other way by calling it 'magic'. That's the lazy answer and we should try and do better than that.

One way doors are super easy. Just have a self closing door with no handle on the other side. No magic required. Bathroom stall doors have this technology.

One unique thing about Etrian Odyssey’s one way doors that was totally game play related is that many (all?) were one-way discoverable. So you had to go through the dungeon the long way before permanently opening a two way shortcut. This isn’t possible in Mordor because the game doesn’t remember anything about the dungeon except the contents of the rooms. The auto map is for display purposes only.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason
post Dec 22 2019, 07:36 PM
Post #31


Drifter
**

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 43
Joined: 29-April 19
Member No.: 8,719
referrer:Google



QUOTE (Mordion @ Dec 21 2019, 08:46 PM) *
One way doors are super easy. Just have a self closing door with no handle on the other side. No magic required. Bathroom stall doors have this technology.

One unique thing about Etrian Odyssey’s one way doors that was totally game play related is that many (all?) were one-way discoverable. So you had to go through the dungeon the long way before permanently opening a two way shortcut. This isn’t possible in Mordor because the game doesn’t remember anything about the dungeon except the contents of the rooms. The auto map is for display purposes only.


Ok, I see what you mean. I was remembering one way doors from Wizardry, where you have a door in front of you, you go through, and on the other side it's suddenly a wall now. I think having a door that's barred from the other side so you can't open the door from the wrong side makes sense. Once you find a way to the other side, you can unbar the door and then pass through freely from either side. I'll add that to Rodrom.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mordion
post Dec 22 2019, 07:54 PM
Post #32


Explorer
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 111
Joined: 30-September 07
Member No.: 3,924
referrer:The Super Seer



QUOTE (Jason @ Dec 22 2019, 02:36 PM) *
Ok, I see what you mean. I was remembering one way doors from Wizardry, where you have a door in front of you, you go through, and on the other side it's suddenly a wall now. I think having a door that's barred from the other side so you can't open the door from the wrong side makes sense. Once you find a way to the other side, you can unbar the door and then pass through freely from either side. I'll add that to Rodrom.

I had a prototype map back in the day with 3 bits for each side of the wall. 1 block movement, 2 block vision, and 3 show door.

So 2&3 make a regular door, but 2 alone is a secret door. 1 alone is a window. 1 2 & 3 would be a fake door.

Ultimately I dropped it because there were too many bad combinations of bits. (Secret One way door that’s a window in reverse?)

Having the vision flag was useful for the raycaster that updates the map, though.

I think it would be neat if you required secret doors to be discovered via perception check before being usable. That way people can’t just brute force the map by banging their head everywhere.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
korexus
post Dec 22 2019, 09:47 PM
Post #33


Voyager
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 151
Joined: 24-October 07
From: Reading
Member No.: 4,011
referrer:Google Search



QUOTE (Mordion @ Dec 22 2019, 02:46 AM) *
One way doors are super easy. Just have a self closing door with no handle on the other side. No magic required. Bathroom stall doors have this technology.


This could work particularly well for hidden doors. - If you have to pull on a torch to trigger the door opening, there may simply be no trigger on the other side.

If could be represented with an arrow or chevron over the wall, rather than the two parallel lines which show you can go through both ways.

For bonus points, you could have one of those rotating fireplace style hidden doors, which can only be triggerered from once side but that side changes every time you go through it. crazy.gif


korexus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MythrilZenith
post Jan 10 2020, 08:15 PM
Post #34


Soldier
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 233
Joined: 8-April 12
Member No.: 6,867
referrer:A google-search for Mordor: Depths of Dejenol maps led me here!



QUOTE (korexus @ Dec 22 2019, 02:47 PM) *
This could work particularly well for hidden doors. - If you have to pull on a torch to trigger the door opening, there may simply be no trigger on the other side.

If could be represented with an arrow or chevron over the wall, rather than the two parallel lines which show you can go through both ways.

For bonus points, you could have one of those rotating fireplace style hidden doors, which can only be triggerered from once side but that side changes every time you go through it. crazy.gif


korexus.


A lot of semi-contemporary dungeon-crawlers that came out around the time of Mordor (usually under the D&D branding umbrella) made active use of the 3d map view to implement stuff like that - a lot of times getting through dungeons became more of a puzzle and less of a monster-slaying adventure. A fantastic modern example of this style of dungeon-crawling experience is Legend of Grimrock, wherein you're actively navigating a 3d space in first person while locked to a grid - the justification of which is that all your party members are chained together as prisoners.

While adding a little complexity can be nice to change things up, adding *too much* can be a dangerous exercise that can cause more harm than good. As an example, the original Descent (a 6DoF first-person shooter) had intricate level design that used the full 3d of the engine in simple ways that ended up feeling very immersive and interesting. Then the sequel came around and introduced a lot of different items, including switches that locked/unlocked/opened/closed doors. The problem with this was that it often became impossible to navigate the world, there was often no logic of what switch had what effect, and (in some egregious examples) switches were timed. Makes sense, but considering every switch is 1-time use AND there is no clear connection between switch and door, it creates a situation where you just straight-up need to know before shooting the switch what it's going to do.

Granted, so long as these switches are not single-use (and they wouldn't be, unless the dungeon is meant to only be played once) there shouldn't be that much of an issue, but timing can definitely be an issue if you want timed switches. To illustrate, I assume we're all familiar with cycle-limiting (and most programs do it by default), but a lot of old games... don't. If you've ever messed with playing old games on new tech, you'll know that certain games become downright unplayable because of uncapped cycles (playing Mech Warrior at 1,000x intended speed was just how I experienced the game. It wasn't until much later that I found out about manual cycle limiting in DOSBox). If you set up a timer, you'll want to be sure whether the timing is strict enough to force a specific path and optimal movement pattern, or whether you want to give some slack to the player before re-locking the door.


In terms of the "use item to trigger door," that can definitely add a level of explorative depth to the game that, frankly, isn't present in Mordor by nature of the game itself, but at the same time if you're going to be going down the same route over a thousand times, just how often will you need to go out of your way to trigger a switch to activate a shortcut, and by that point will the shortcut be actually efficient enough to justify using it? I suppose that's not your job to figure out, and instead is more on the player to optimize their own route, but it's still worth considering if nothing else.

Anyway, wall of text aside, I like a lot of these ideas, at least in theory. Keep 'em coming!

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Jan 10 2020, 08:18 PM


--------------------
Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
korexus
post Jan 10 2020, 11:30 PM
Post #35


Voyager
***

Group: Members Plus
Posts: 151
Joined: 24-October 07
From: Reading
Member No.: 4,011
referrer:Google Search



To be honest, I wasn't thinking about actually interactive with the torch (or whatever) although that could be cool.

I was just giving an example of how a feature in the game could map to a physical construct. It would be kinda neat if the artwork gave some sort of hint that a thing was different (so if there were already torches on the wall, then having one at a slight angle because it was actually a switch would be fun) but I don't think that's necessary for a game in the spirit of Mordor.

However, I do think that a feature like a one way door would be powerful in level design, which is much more inline with a Mordor inspired game. There are plenty of places in the original game, where you have to fight through a series of rooms to reach a boss monster. What if turning back wasn't an option, because the door you came through isn't there any more? This would up the tension, particularly on earlier levels when using a movement spell to get out is not an option.

I've realised while writing this, that the same mechanic can be achieved with teleporters, so maybe the one way door doesn't offer quite as much as I thought, but I still think it's a neat and thematic way to craft some more interesting levels.


korexus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 22nd September 2020 - 06:56 AM
Bridged By IpbWiki: Integration Of Invision Power Board and MediaWiki © GlobalSoft
Copyrights and Credits