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Gutsy
post Nov 17 2005, 01:43 AM
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I think he means as a seperate guild. In which case, I think a Necromancer would be cooler.


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Rotlung
post Nov 17 2005, 04:00 PM
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No. A specialised Sorcerer guild exclusive to Evil characters with these so-called "morkal" spells.


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fentonlw
post Jan 20 2006, 09:33 AM
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Thief guild is best Neutral/Evil, restricting to evil doesn't make any sense, since some a Thief & a Healer are both required Chars. to have while playing Mordor, and so is A sorcerer, (one could have a Wizard instead of a sorcerer,)
but not really another class for either a Thief or A Healer...


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grobblewobble
post Jan 20 2006, 05:58 PM
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The idea behind most of what I said, was to create more possibilities for different parties. What you say, that you need at least one healer and one thief in any party, is precisely what I would like to change. For example, if the scavenger guild would be improved and would get better at thieving, you would start to consider replacing your thief by a scavenger. That would introduce new possibilities into the game and make it more fun.

But, you could say, why use a scavenger when a plain thief still does his job better? After all, you only need one guy in the party to open the chests and you want him to be as good at it as possible. That is why I proposed to restrict access to the thief guild to evil characters and access to the healer guild to good characters. This way, you could either build a good party and get the best healing, or you could build an evil party and get the best thiefing. A good party would have to use a scavenger (or some such guild) to open chests, but as the scavenger guild would be improved, such a party could still manage things.
An evil party would have no access to the healer guild, but they can use a mage (and possibly morkal spells) instead. So they would still be able to heal themselves.


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Mister
post Feb 26 2006, 03:40 AM
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Hi! I'm new here, but have played mordor (a little bit at a time) since years ago. It's great that you are creating a worthy successor ohmy.gifk:

Anyway, some of my ideas:

About hp bonus from high Con: I never liked it, mostly because of legacy characters, which I think is a flawed concept, same with the "optimal level path".
What I think should be done: ignore order of level advancement; for example, if you are Nomad level 2 and Warrior level 1, if you level up warrior, you gain a single hp (since warrior gain one more hp than nomads). Also, Con bonuses should be applied retroactively, that is, raising Con to 30 then level to 30 should be the same as raising level then Con. This way, even if you start with low con, you can raise it later and the effect will be the same.
Also, randomness in leveling should be scrapped, or at least provide something against it. For example, if at your level/con you can have a maximum of 100 hp (as if, if all your levels up had maximum effect), but you only got 90, you can train the missing hp somehow (spending gold at a trainer, via potions that raise hp up to your max, whatever). This can be used to solve the "forfeit-quest-to-gain-hp" bug.

About extra swings: In Mordor 1 is too weak, in Demise is too powerful... The solution lies in between. I propose something similar to Demise's, but if a hit misses or fails to kill a monster, further swings have their damage reduced.
Also, partial extra swings could be nice. x% chance of an extra swing per round. It increases little by little, and at 100% is a full extra swing. This way, a guild's extra swings ability gets more powerful little by little, instead of at specific levels.
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fart642000
post Feb 26 2006, 04:13 AM
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other option for extra swing could be to cut 1 from the swings you do if you miss (since the miss kind of throws you off the rythem you need to continue attacking)

so if you had 3 hits, and the first missed, the 2nd wouldn't do anything and the 3rd would be just a regular hit


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Crusher Junior
post Feb 26 2006, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (Mister @ Feb 25 2006, 10:40 PM)
About hp bonus from high Con: I never liked it, mostly because of legacy characters, which I think is a flawed concept, same with the "optimal level path".
What I think should be done: ignore order of level advancement; for example, if you are Nomad level 2 and Warrior level 1, if you level up warrior, you gain a single hp (since warrior gain one more hp than nomads). Also, Con bonuses should be applied retroactively, that is, raising Con to 30 then level to 30 should be the same as raising level then Con. This way, even if you start with low con, you can raise it later and the effect will be the same.
Also, randomness in leveling should be scrapped, or at least provide something against it. For example, if at your level/con you can have a maximum of 100 hp (as if, if all your levels up had maximum effect), but you only got 90, you can train the missing hp somehow (spending gold at a trainer, via potions that raise hp up to your max, whatever). This can be used to solve the "forfeit-quest-to-gain-hp" bug.

About extra swings: In Mordor 1 is too weak, in Demise is too powerful... The solution lies in between. I propose something similar to Demise's, but if a hit misses or fails to kill a monster, further swings have their damage reduced.
Also, partial extra swings could be nice. x% chance of an extra swing per round. It increases little by little, and at 100% is a full extra swing. This way, a guild's extra swings ability gets more powerful little by little, instead of at specific levels.
*


I disagree with some of your comments about the HP bonus. If a player can raise their constitution early on in the game, then they should be provided with some sort of advantage. It also makes the character creation in the beginning more important since you have to consider putting points into Constitution. Otherwise, it's almost a usless stat, except for the requiremenst needed for guilds/items.

I like your suggestion for the extra swings. The idea of having the chance of having an extra swing sounds like a nice compromise between M1 and Demise. If a guild offers better training in multiple swings, then the chance of making the extra swing should be better for that guild (i.e. ninja). Does anyone else like this idea? I think I will create a poll for this. wink.gif


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Mister
post Feb 26 2006, 04:53 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Junior @ Feb 26 2006, 04:33 AM)
If a player can raise their constitution early on in the game, then they should be provided with some sort of advantage. It also makes the character creation in the beginning more important since you have to consider putting points into Constitution. Otherwise, it's almost a usless stat, except for the requiremenst needed for guilds/items.
*

But with my system, new player still get bonuses from high constitution. The only difference is that bonuses lost from low constitution can be regained later.
Right now, constitution is THE most important stat. Start with a low constitution, and you'll be a pansy later on. Compare this with other stats: it doesn't matter if they start low, as long as you max them later. Con must be maxed at the beginning, the sooner the better. And after ML is reached, you don't need it anymore.
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Mongo
post Feb 26 2006, 05:11 AM
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I personally think the Con bonus is overrated, I paid little attention to it when I restarted playing after several years (probably 2 weeks before I started coming here) and had already started my party and really screwed up as far as putting enough in Con.. I basically didn't remember what I was doing as I forgot on two chars to set wis and int at 10 to use tomes even. So i struggled at first, didn't even really follow optimal guild route, and my party is fine now, sure it may have taken a little longer, but I have plenty of HP to clear the lowest levels with ease, at about the same time a char can use the items and has high enough spell level to be ABLE to survive and clear the lowest levels...Don't get me totally wrong, obviously more HP is better, but in the long run I don't think it's that big of deal. I don't think anyone is going to be able to thrive on the lowest levels any sooner solely because of number of HP's, imho guild level(s) and item availability and use control the pace with which you can safely and sensibly clear lvls 13-15. Maybe I'm just trying to justify my playing, I don't know...Feel free to disagree, just my two cents worth...


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Nudibranch
post Feb 26 2006, 11:36 AM
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The greatest importance of high HP is staying alive when encountering instadeath monsters. When meeting monsters that can do 300+ points of damage in a turn (or 600+ on Level 15), the difference between 300 and 400 HP becomes quite significant. That extra margin helps your party's survivability a whole lot.

You can compensate for low HP with higher Defense, but that takes a while to build up, especially if you are limited in how deep you can dive and thus how quickly you can gain XP.

You can win the game even if you play very inefficiently, but you're much likelier to get to 15 if it only takes 200 hours of play time than if it takes 500...

I agree with Mister about Con being far too important during the early levels. I'm not yet decided on what's the best way to address it, although one idea I had was to add a guild which gains 3 HP per level after ML -- a possible way to compensate for bad early character choices. dntknw.gif

There are a lot of changes that could be done to both races and guilds, even within a pure Mordor system (i.e., a mod) that could greatly increase their variety and balance.


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Mongo
post Feb 26 2006, 03:06 PM
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@Nudibranch : I agree about the instadeath encounters and I see your point concerning someone becoming frustrated if it takes 500 hours of gameplay to reach 15, but in my case I did not take advantage (that much) from the con bonus and my party of 4 made it to 15 in my 217th hour of gameplay, which I just may have been lucky or since I had played before I knew about healing before entering town and instadeath creatures, I did not die as often and therfore suffered no con lowering raises, etc. -- in hindsight that probably had more to due with my particular case of success. dntknw.gif Good idea about a 3 HP guild ohmy.gifk: ....maybe make that guild cost a ton of gold per level (even more than Thief)???


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Sfon
post Feb 26 2006, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (Nudibranch @ Feb 26 2006, 06:36 AM)
a guild which gains 3 HP per level after ML


That could be used to help compensate for a bad start, but it would mainly just be abused to separate the gap between badly and well planned characters even more. Also it would simply add another guild every character would need in order to get "good" HP, thus decreasing the choices of players who want their chars to be the best they can be.


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Nudibranch
post Feb 26 2006, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (Sfon @ Feb 26 2006, 04:46 PM)
That could be used to help compensate for a bad start, but it would mainly just be abused to separate the gap between badly and well planned characters even more. Also it would simply add another guild every character would need in order to get "good" HP, thus decreasing the choices of players who want their chars to be the best they can be.


I'm not sure. It obviously shouldn't be too attractive a guild, but putting it in solely for HP benefits is no good either.

It should have fair fighting abilities so that it would be plausible to take it as your sole fighting guild, but other fighting guilds should be better. A really optimal character should have one of the better fighting guilds, and with a Warrior-like Experience Factor (16), there'd be too much redundancy to take two fighting guilds just for a little extra HP unless you really needed it. Characters with 400-ish HP after the Optimal Route reach 999 HP by Level 350 anyway, so it'd be a bad investment just for extra HP.

I'm thinking it would be best for mid-level characters (up to 100 guild levels or so) who made the mistake of low starting Con or leveling all-Nomad. It could also be useful to races that are normally not that hardy -- Morloch and Elf, in particular.

"Monk", perhaps?


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slimboy76
post Feb 27 2006, 07:30 AM
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I think the constitution system is good as it is. but really, nudibranch point out the right spot. Morloch and Elf is such a drag to get their hp max out (i deleted the morloch while my current elf is behind other characters in hp and don't forget the hight ep of elf).

This two guilds should be considered in deciding about constitution, either change the distribution of their stats, or make a new guild that only they - and few others could join (gnome/man?).


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Mlaedoxael
post Jul 3 2006, 06:23 PM
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Hey have you ever thought of adding Items (Tomes, Potions) that could possibly increase HP and Resistances? Would have to make them rare though.. after all, we don't want characters running around with a maximum HP *and* 95% resistance in everything.. just an Idea, anyways.. 1337.gif


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Nudibranch
post Jul 3 2006, 07:18 PM
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Hmm, an ultra-rare item that permanently increases one Resistance stat by a small amount... that might have some merit, especially if the combined-resistances idea from a different thread were implemented.


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Gutsy
post Jul 3 2006, 07:25 PM
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Yeah, I think that ideas a good one. A 5% increase in resistance would probably be enough to prevent overpowered characters from being created.


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Sfon
post Oct 9 2006, 03:33 AM
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Yes I know this is an old topic, but this forum moves so slowely and this one is still on the front page, I can see no reason this discussion cannot be continued if someone has something to add to it.

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 12:50 PM)
IMO we should touch the guild/race resctrictions only if there is strong comunity request for it. I can certainly agree that healers should be of good alignment, but moving guilds around has some drastic effect on the game balance.
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I totally agree with this. Reading all these suggestions of changes and seeing how well they are recieved gives me a very bad feeling about MXP. The current system almost works as it is, only a few changes need to be made. If you change everything around like Nudibranch is suggesting, you are just going to end up with a bunch of new imbalances that will take ages to iron out, if they ever even are. The greatest balance will be achieved by making the fewest changes needed.

For example, take scavanger. Does it need major changes? No. Simply make it so it has good, but not the best, thieving and fighting ability. Even if scavanger as a lone guild is better than thief as a lone guild, thief will still be the superior choice if the character already has another fighting guild. I think most of the worst guild imbalances are based on this mistake: simply compairing one lone guild to another instead of considering how different combinations effect their usefulness.

Multiple swings should not work like they do in Demise, as they are too powerful. The Mordor way of handling multiple swings is more balanced. This is not so much a guild issue, as it is a weapon issue. The multiple swings system in Demise breaks things. For example bronze weapons are basically worthless in Demise because of the second swing you get while unarmed. I am not against some in-between system, like having a chance of making another swing, though.

QUOTE
I'm not sure. It obviously shouldn't be too attractive a guild, but putting it in solely for HP benefits is no good either.

It should have fair fighting abilities so that it would be plausible to take it as your sole fighting guild, but other fighting guilds should be better. A really optimal character should have one of the better fighting guilds, and with a Warrior-like Experience Factor (16), there'd be too much redundancy to take two fighting guilds just for a little extra HP unless you really needed it. Characters with 400-ish HP after the Optimal Route reach 999 HP by Level 350 anyway, so it'd be a bad investment just for extra HP.

I'm thinking it would be best for mid-level characters (up to 100 guild levels or so) who made the mistake of low starting Con or leveling all-Nomad. It could also be useful to races that are normally not that hardy -- Morloch and Elf, in particular.

"Monk", perhaps?


You completely missed what I was trying to say. I shall try to go in more detal.

If there is a guild that gives more hp per level after max level, then it will extend the max hp route until you have hp at 999, instead of only making it be a low level thing. Instead of Warrior, Nomad, Wizard; it will be Warrior, Nomad, Wizard, Monk. See? You are just adding to the problem.

Making this guild unnattractive otherwise would be like trying to prevent anyone from being interested in using an immortality spell simply by making it not do anything else but make you live forever. People put characters through the max hp route even if they have no other use for all those guilds. People are going to level every one of their characters in monk for the same reason even if it does nothing but give the extra hp.

Not only all that, but mid-level monsters will need to be beefed up to deal with all the super hp warrior, nomad, wizard, monk characters, putting normally played characters at even more of a disadvantage. Either that, or you will just have to let the w-n-w-m characters be overpowered.

This is also a good example of why I am so against mucking with things more than neccassery. If only one change like this can break things, imagine what 20 changes like this could do.

This post has been edited by Sfon: Oct 9 2006, 03:36 AM


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Crusher Junior
post Oct 9 2006, 04:04 AM
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Sfon, every one of your comments has 100% merrit. But I am in favor of moderate changes (for example, I also like the system where it is possible to make another multiple swing).

Some guilds/races really do need some re-balancing though. Dwarves have access to way too many guilds, especially when this is viewed in combination with their natural resistances and solid stats.

Villains are barbarians are rather un-used in Mordor 1. We have thought about strengthening them a bit by adding new abilities. They try to mix the best of 2 guilds, so they obviously can't be overpowered in one trait. However, they still need to be well balanced.


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Sfon
post Oct 9 2006, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Crusher Junior @ Oct 20 2005, 06:13 PM)
Mages could be restricted to neutral. This would make more sense since a good character probably won't be charming an evil creature and vice versa.
*


In one way of looking at it, true, but there are other ways of looking at it. They are dominating them, bending them to their own will, not paling around with them. What Paladin/Villain wouldn't want to bend an evil/good monster and make them act according to their own world view? As for how much the monster likes it, if the character is strong enough they don't get much say in the matter.

I'm not saying it makes no sense for them to be neutral only, just saying that it doesn't neccessarily make more sense.

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 12:50 PM)
Gnome
Actually I always have a gnome in my party. whistling.gif Ogres are much worse. I agree on increasing the usefulness of Charisma. If I'm not mistaken, formulas potentially influenced by charisma are: Charm spells (currently no charisma effect), Bind spells (no effect either), binding level breaking (no effect), contentedness level breaking (no effect), chance of leaving (charisma has an effect) and chance to turn hostile (powerful effect). Which of these should charisma have an effect on?

Elf
If you don't read the code, Int and Wis aren't really distinguishable from one another, but apart from that they have a fairly strong effect, both through SP and as requisites for high level spells. 300 SP is just too much, IMO. It's more than two scrolls of spells more than the next most powerful character. Each trip. blink.gif A small increase shouldn't upset game balance, though.

Mage
We could make the ring of entrapment cursed. unsure.gif We're anyway lowering the spell level of most items. Good point on the OoLD, but I'm not thrilled by the idea of restricting their use.

Constitution: hp bonus from high Con is the most visible feature of constitution itself. If we dropped it players would dump the stat. Although it's possible to reduce the extra hp you get through Con. dntknw.gif


Gnome
To my understanding, the whole "gnome stinks" attitude started out as a joke, then people started taking the jokes seriously. I've used them before, and they are a good alternitive to elf if you want a spellcaster with a bit of strength. There is nothing wrong with them, IMO, especially if charisma is made more useful in MXP. If charisma is not made much more useful and elves are given more wis/int, though, they may need a little more wis/int too or they risk becomming to elf sort of what ogre currently is to giant.

As a side note, it is interesting how wide spread the gnome hatred was in the Mordor 2/Demise community back around 2000, and yet they are only really worse than elves in that they have a few mp less. People didn't even hate ogres like that, and ogres are even worse compaired to giants in Mordor 2/Demise than they are in Mordor 1. There is an interesting psychology lesson somewhere in this.

Elf
As the best, you don't need to be that much better than the second best for people to love you. This is one reason why the main guilds like warrior and thief can be almost brokenly good compaired to guilds with second-best abilities. 300 total mp is overkill, as they can have a much smaller amount of MP more than everyone else than that and still be a valuble addition to any party. They shouldn't need more than 20-30 more MP than the second best.

Mage
How about this: There are two OoLD items. One is cursed, works on weaker monsters than the other, and is usable by everyone. The other is not cursed, works on stronger monsters than the other, and can only be used by mages. The mage one at least should depend on caster level, so it doesn't discourage you from building mage levels even after you have enough to use to use it. If both depend on caster levels, then they could have a difference of power by casting different versions of the spell.

Constitution
If con really needs to be changed, then how about each point increases all resistances by 1.5%? If the idea of resistance spells not giving 95% but stacking somewhat with current resistances gets used, that should make con rather valuble even if its HP increasing advantage is reduced or dumped. Resistances with this system would need a hard cap of 95% to prevent it from giving too high a resistance when combined with natural resistances. You could make the maximum resistance given by spells lower than 95% so you'd need good con to have 95% even later on the game, maybe even causing ogres to be the only ones to be able to have 95% on everything without con increasing items.

This post has been edited by Sfon: Oct 9 2006, 12:18 PM


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