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grobblewobble
post Oct 18 2005, 01:30 PM
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As Nudibranch stated, the guilds and races need to be adjusted to ensure each guild and each race has its uses. Ideally, any combination of guild and race that is allowed should have its own special use.

I don't know what the current ideas of the development team are about this. I do
have some ideas on it myself. First of all, the most basic needs of any solo character
or party are thiefing and healing. Currently, a character or party can easily
get the best of both of these abilities by joining healer and thief. I would
suggest to restrict the thief guild to evil guys and the healer guild to good
guys. This would be logical, and it would immediately improve the usefullness of
some lesser-used guilds. Other suggestions:

Human:
Those already have enough use as is. Still, potions of youth and dragon blood
should arguably made a little less rare, or there should be a spell to resist
aging attacks.

Gnome:
Thought by many to be the crappiest race ever. The best solution, IMHO, would be
to increase the effectiveness / usefullness of Charisma. The chances of having a
creature join you should depend more strongly on Charisma. (I mean, the
dependency should not be lineair, but quadratical or even exponential.) And the chances of
creatures losing bind levels should depend on it MUCH stronger (and less on
guild level).

Elf:
The effects of int and wis aren't important enough yet. They should influence spell
damage as well as mana.

Giant:
They are good enough already.

Ogre:
Does anyone really use these in Mordor?
Adding another guild option, like scavenger or villain, would help them. Still,
one of their greatest advantages should have been their high natural
resistances. It is a shame that natural resistances don't really matter in this
game. Suggestion: increase the effectiveness of resistances gradually, like in
Demise, but ADD spell resistance to natural resistance. This way, an Ogre would
still be more resilient than a Giant when they both have been buffered by the
same high-level sorcerer.
In fact, when I said add, I did not mean it literally. If the ogre has 75% fire
resist, and a sorcerer adds 80%, the total would become 75% + (80% * 25%) = 95%. This way of adding looks like it is assymetrical, but in fact it is a commutative operation. 80% + (75% * 20%) = 95%, too.
Resistances from items could work the same way.


Dwarf:
If thieves are going to be evil only and healer good only, I fear this race is
going to be crippled. One option is to allow them only as good characters, rather than neutral.

Morloch:
They make excellent warrior/spellcasters. That should be enough.

Osiri:
Good enough.

Troll:
The villain, ninja and scavenger guilds all need to be improved to make trolls
worth playing.


nomad:
Already usefull enough, I think. Nomad was never intented to be a very serious
guild anyway.

warrior:
Too usefull, but that should be solved by increasing the usefullness of other
guilds. They are fairly restrictive about races that can join, which is good.

paladin:
The advantage this guild SHOULD have, is that a healing spell is casted at the
spell level of the highest guild that learns the spell and at the lowest mana
cost among guilds that learn the spell. However, a paladin/mage does NOT have
such an advantage right now! I mean, the mechanism works, but it is not an
advantage they have over a healer/warrior. I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, but a warrior/healer casts restoration
at the spell level of his warrior guild, too!
If this "feature" is removed from the game, and healers allow good characters, a
healer/paladin becomes a very nice option. In addition, it would be cool if the Holy Sword would be some great weapon. Something like the Menghus in Demise, for example.

ninja:
If the multiple swing system is changed to work like it does in Demise, the
ninja guild starts shining. This system allows more interesting trade-offs
between different weapons, too. On the flipside, I have the impression it is too easy to
beat monsters to death in Demise. With a party with 24 or so total swings, this
should be no surprise. So maybe the damage characters deal should be decreased,
or the number of hitpoints monsters have should be increased. dntknw.gif

villain:
Just as a paladin/healer could be a nice good character, the mage/villain could
become its evil counterpart. Still, their fighting skills should be improved, or
they should get access to morkal spells, like in demise.

scavenger:
Their fighting and thiefing skills should be improved. Since good parties can't
have a thief, if my suggestion is going to be implemented, this guild would
provide the alternative, as they allow any alignment.

seeker:
No comments. Their high perception and reasonable fighting skills will still be
reason enough to use them.

mage:
DESTROY THE RING OF ENTRAPMENT! diablo.gif Or at least its use should be restricted to mages (but they probably won't use it).
EDIT: The use of Orb of Life Domination should also be restricted to mages IMO. In Mordor, a healer who uses an OoLD is better at keeping a companion for a long time than a mage can ever hope to be.
EDIT: Keeping companions should be made a little more attractive in itself. In mordor, you get like 15% of the experience for companion kills. That's just too little -- you're way better off killing the monsters yourself. Something like 50% would be more reasonable, I'd say.

sorcerer:
Once again, addition of morkal spells would be nice. Their other spells need
to be balanced too, as I heard Nudibranch say on several occasions. And no more
helms of brilliance, please. Spellcasting items are nice, as long as the spell
levels aren't so ridiculously high.
Another idea is to restrict access to this guild to evil characters. Especially if they are going to get morkal spells. A good character casting morkal spells, that is just ridiculous.
This idea is especially interesting, as an evil character or party could use morkal spells instead of healing that way. To make sure a good party can still cast resistances, the healer and wizard guilds could get them at lesser cost, though still more expensive than a sorcerer. And it may be wise to restrict some other guilds, like seeker, mage, or even warrior, to neutral.

healer:
There is no substitute for their healing spells, fortunately. Unfortunately,
there exists such a thing as a Cap of Death. That would almost be alright, if
spellcasters were the only characters allowed to wear it.

wizard:
It would be a nice alternative to the seeker guild, if the required experience
wasn't so high. Some special items, only usuable by wizards, would also be
stylish.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 18 2005, 11:44 PM


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BLauritson
post Oct 18 2005, 03:57 PM
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What are these "morkal" spells that you speak of?


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grobblewobble
post Oct 18 2005, 04:11 PM
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Oops, sorry I forgot to explain. Morkal spells are spells that drain life from monsters and give it to the caster. Of course they deal less damage than other spells. They are supposed to be very evil.

By the way, the multiple swings system in Demise is that you always get your maximum number of swings, no matter whether some of them missed or not. Characters also receive their extra guild swings twice as early.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 18 2005, 06:16 PM


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Crusher Junior
post Oct 18 2005, 11:20 PM
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the race and guild balancing issue has been discussed a bit so far. One possible solution is to create new abilities for some of the other guilds. The guilds and races will definately need some rebalancing. Those were so good points there, especially the part about the morkal spells.


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Nudibranch
post Oct 20 2005, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 18 2005, 09:30 AM)
Human:
Those already have enough use as is. Still, potions of youth and dragon blood
should arguably made a little less rare, or there should be a spell to resist
aging attacks.


My thinking on that was to add an item to the game, "Sigil of the Ancients", a misc. item which boosts Con by 5 points. Possibly it should only be dropped by the Reaper of Souls. Equipping 6 or 7 would push your Con above 52, making you immune to Aging attacks -- provided Mordor XP uses the same formula for Aging as the original Mordor.

Gnome:
I think Gnomes are actually pretty decent characters as it stands, especially as Mages. But I fully agree with increasing the usefulness of Charisma.

Elf:
I'm wary of changes to the Mordor system, such as having Int/Wis affect spell damage, as you suggest. It might be enough to just give Elves Int/Wis of 25-30, giving them about 100 SP more than other characters. That would make them pretty unique.

Ogre:
Watered-down Giants, and therefore pointless. Same problem with Trolls.

Dwarf:
Even if they couldn't be Healers or Thieves, they can still be Warrior/Wizard/Seekers, with excellent stats for melee and spellcasting.

Morloch:
They are good Warrior/spellcasters, but their low Con of 15 stunts their HP and makes them pretty undesirable. It's a pity a few points of Con make such a big difference.

Ninja:
Ninja's tricky. There's not a whole lot to distinguish them from Warriors except their extra swings, which are not that useful in Mordor -- but they change the whole game balance in Demise. mellow.gif

Villain:
Villains' fighting skills definitely need improving. I was thinking one thing that could be done to distinguish them from Warriors is to give them the best Attack score in the game. Conversely, Paladins could have the best Defense score.

Thinking about it in general terms, Paladins should be fighter/healers, Villains should be fighter/sorcerers, Scavengers fighter/thieves. I'm still not sure where that leaves Ninjas. Maybe Ninjas should be fighter/thieves and Scavengers should be scrapped.

Mage:
I agree about the problem with the Ring of Entrapment. It might be reasonable to have a rare item with finite charges that can do that, but not a rechargable one. That just blows Mages out of the game. dry.gif One idea I'd like to see is to make Soul Entrapment resisted by Magic, but Dominate [whatever] not resisted by anything. It'd take some legwork to charm powerful monsters with relatively weak spells, but it'd make Mages uniquely useful.

The thought of restricting OoLDs to Mages is an interesting one.

I have a problem with companions in general: they die so easily that I don't bother keeping them. If it were possible to cast resistances on companions, that would improve their survivability and usefulness. If other characters could cast spells on them -- healing spells especially, maybe even Mass Heal -- that would be even better. The fact that you can carry only one dead companion is an annoyance, too.

Companions give you 25% of the XP from a kill. If you tote along 4 of them, that's really not too bad -- they'll help you mop up the place quickly, as long as they survive.

Healer:
Without the existence of the Cap of Death or Helm of Brilliance, you'd pretty much have to have a Healer (or, okay, Wizard) in order to defeat you-know-who.

Wizard:
If I'm Neutral, I'd rather have a Healer, otherwise I'd rather have a Mage. If Healers were Good and Mages and Sorcerers Evil, Wizard would suddenly be a very interesting choice for Neutral characters.


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grobblewobble
post Oct 20 2005, 10:22 AM
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The "Sigil of the Ancients" would also provide a way to avoid being drained/stoned. Interesting.. At the other hand, a resist aging spell may be a simpler solution. If the effectiveness of resistance spells increase with your spell level, it would not be imbalancing, since only a very high-level spellcaster could completely avoid being aged.
How does everybody think about this idea, anyway? Of gradually increasing the effectiveness of a resistance spell with your spell level? It would prevent people from just parking a level 30 wizard or sorcerer at the town entrance for their resists.

Morloch (low con = low hits):
Maybe this whole "legacy character" thing should be dropped. I know some people think it's unbalanced, and not without reason. So, what if we simply drop the rule about getting (many) additional hitpoints for high con? It was a stupid rule in AD&D to begin with.
At the other hand, with the Sigils this would mean your racial constitution becomes irrelevant, in the long run.

About gnomes, mages and charisma:
First of all, I like your idea about magic resist and Soul Entrapment a lot. As well as your ideas of being able to buffer them with spells, also if they belong to another character, and being able to carry multiple dead ones. ohmy.gifk:
I was also thinking it is a bit odd that your chances of a succesfull charm depend on the current hitpoints of the monster. This means you can always charm any monster, if you have the patience to bring its hitpoints down with a low-damage spell. Unless it is charm resistant.
Speaking of charm resistance, I hate it. I can see why monsters like the slave driver have it, but I always thought it to be an annoying and ugly solution. The most annoying about it is, that a lot of monsters have it that are just rare, like the Morey Bilk. Never being able to charm one, even if you're a level 999 mage, is something I find extremely frustrating.
Another idea is, to let your chances of a succesfull charm depend on
- your guild/spell level versus the monsters "guild level"
- the maximal hitpoints of the monster, as well as its att/def, abilities etc
This way, low-level characters would never be able to charm the slave driver, and no one could ever hope to charm the toughest monsters in the game. There would be no need for charm resistance.

Even another idea is to give monsters a defined, non-zero score in int, wis and cha. The charisma of the monster could affect your chances of charming it, as well as it's chances to break free. I'm not sure what the int/wis could be used for, but at least it looks a lot better.

Elf:
An elf with 30 int/wis, that sounds great to me! ok2.gif

Ogre:
You didn't respond to my suggestion of adding spell resistances to natural ones yet. I really think it could create an interesting trade-off between Ogres and Giants. It would also introduce some other new trade-offs. But it IS another change to the game, that would have to be well balanced.

Regarding the trolls:
QUOTE
Thinking about it in general terms, Paladins should be fighter/healers, Villains should be fighter/sorcerers, Scavengers fighter/thieves.  I'm still not sure where that leaves Ninjas.  Maybe Ninjas should be fighter/thieves and Scavengers should be scrapped.

This means trolls will be more than just watered-down giants, doesn't it? Especially if the scavenger guild is scrapped and replaced by Ninja as the fighter/thief guild. I would definitely include a Ninja troll in good parties.
You could even restrict trolls to evil alignment (more realistic tongue.gif) and they would still be useful. As Ninja, Villain or both.

QUOTE
Without the existence of the Cap of Death or Helm of Brilliance, you'd pretty much have to have a Healer (or, okay, Wizard) in order to defeat you-know-who.

Nice to stumble upon this right now. Just yesterday I finally tested if my long-term "creative kill quest" is at all feasible. I created a high-level, but still reasonable party of four. They were all well equipped, but had no blessings of Morash. So I went down the stairs..
And I succeeded! Instead of WoD, I used Paralyzing Death (from the Lamurian Crown) to get rid of the Flame Devils. That didn't affect the Big Boss, but I simply stumped him down with Eliminators. GKH would have worked just as well. The party had two giants, one dwarf healer/warrior and one dwarf thief/warrior.
Ok, that was a long diversion. The point is that WoD is NOT the only way to kill him. But you could just as well give him a second "Achilles heel", to allow even more creative kills. naughty.gif

QUOTE
If I'm Neutral, I'd rather have a Healer, otherwise I'd rather have a Mage.  If Healers were Good and Mages and Sorcerers Evil, Wizard would suddenly be a very interesting choice for Neutral characters.

It still should be checked there is a reason at all to play a neutral character. Probably, some other guild should be restricted to neutral. Seeker for instance, or warrior, or maybe mage? A Seeker/Wizard would have a lot of redundancy, though. Perhaps the seeker guild should get the movement spells at a higher mana cost.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 20 2005, 11:38 AM


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Taffer
post Oct 20 2005, 11:26 AM
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Needs halflings. Needs more cowbell.

Agreeing with nudibranch on a lot of points.


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Nudibranch
post Oct 20 2005, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 20 2005, 06:22 AM)
How does everybody think about this idea, anyway? Of gradually increasing the effectiveness of a resistance spell with your spell level? It would prevent people from just parking a level 30 wizard or sorcerer at the town entrance for their resists.


Well, that's how Demise does it, right? I haven't played Demise, but maybe someone who has played it can testify as to whether or not that's a good approach.

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 20 2005, 06:22 AM)
Morloch (low con = low hits):
Maybe this whole "legacy character" thing should be dropped. I know some people think it's unbalanced, and not without reason. So, what if we simply drop the rule about getting (many) additional hitpoints for high con? It was a stupid rule in AD&D to begin with.
At the other hand, with the Sigils this would mean your racial constitution becomes irrelevant, in the long run.


Yeah, one flaw of the game is that if you don't do the Optimal Route, you'll have about half as many hit points, and there's really no way to recover from that. One idea I had was to add a specialized guild (Monk?) that gets an MH of 3 -- i.e., 3 HP per level after ML. It could help to blunt the effects of those far-too-important early levels.

In the long run, racial Con is irrelevant. The difference between 20 Con and 24 Con in terms of resistance to special attacks is tiny. But it's worth an extra 35% or more HP in those all-important first levels.

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 20 2005, 06:22 AM)
Even another idea is to give monsters a defined, non-zero score in int, wis and cha. The charisma of the monster could affect your chances of charming it, as well as it's chances to break free. I'm not sure what the int/wis could be used for, but at least it looks a lot better. 


If you do want to build variation into monsters' charm-resistance, I'm thinking it would be better to keep it simple -- add a single variable which makes certain monsters more charm resistant -- maybe just turn Charm Resistance into a 0-100% value. That, combined with monster Guild Level ought to be enough, I think. I'm not sure how to combine that idea with the idea of Soul Entrapment being resisted but the Domination spells not. Maybe have Charm Resistance be 1/2 as effective against the Dominate spells... this is straying a lot from the original Mordor dynamics, however.

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 20 2005, 06:22 AM)
Ogre:
You didn't respond to my suggestion of adding spell resistances to natural ones yet. I really think it could create an interesting trade-off between Ogres and Giants. It would also introduce some other new trade-offs. But it IS another change to the game, that would have to be well balanced.


Yeah, I just have no idea how that change would play out. I'd rather balance Giants and other races by leaving Giants unchanged and enticing players to the not-as-strong races with a few extra good guilds -- to have them occupy the middle ground between the sheer power of Giants and the versatility of the Humans, Dwarves, etc.

As for Trolls, yeah, the answer should lie in fine-tuning the race and guild abilities.

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 20 2005, 06:22 AM)
It still should be checked there is a reason at all to play a neutral character. Probably, some other guild should be restricted to neutral. Seeker for instance, or warrior, or maybe mage? A Seeker/Wizard would have a lot of redundancy, though. Perhaps the seeker guild should get the movement spells at a higher mana cost.


Another possibility is to add a Neutral-only guild: say, Druid, with a few Charm spells and Heal spells and Element spells. If it becomes possible to heal other characters' companions, you could remove Mage's heal spells altogether. Just brainstorming at this point. smile.gif

The game will still need a Neutral guild with Thieving abilities... I'm not yet sure what exactly should be done regarding Ninjas and Scavengers.

And now, here's the Blue Gremlin Cult with their latest hit, "Don't Fear the Reaper of Souls..."

This post has been edited by Nudibranch: Oct 21 2005, 01:37 AM


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post Oct 20 2005, 10:57 PM
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OMG!!! You people write too much! I don't have enough time to read all this stuff!(I think I don't even have the patience... biggrin.gif )

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post Oct 20 2005, 11:13 PM
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Just replying to a few of the points:

Mages could be restricted to neutral. This would make more sense since a good character probably won't be charming an evil creature and vice versa.

Removing the HP bonus of constitution would make constitution irrelevant. Not a good idea.
Amulet of Sigils is way too overpowered. Being resistant to aging makes the age limit of races useless. A resist aging will have the same effect.

A gradual increase in resistances has been discussed before. It sounds like a good idea to me and many others.

Restricting the ring of entrapment is another good idea.


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post Oct 21 2005, 04:16 AM
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maybe instead of age resistance, an age effect deducer that gives the status "youthful" that gives maybe that drops the effects of aging by 10%

maybe also some item related to the fountain of youth that grants it temporarly


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post Oct 21 2005, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE
I'd rather balance Giants and other races by leaving Giants unchanged and enticing players to the not-as-strong races with a few extra good guilds

Honestly, I think giants would need to be restricted from the Seeker guild to make this solution really work. If that would mean they are no longer used as often, I can only see it as a good thing. As is, they are part of virtually any party.
Without the seeker guild, they would still be a valuable in a party. After all, they're the best fighters you can get. dwarf.gif

QUOTE
Removing the HP bonus of constitution would make constitution irrelevant.

Not if the other effects of constitution would be increased a little bit. A very high constitution should mean you take less damage from things like breathing, electrocution, or other nasty stuff, IMO.
The original intention of a constitution score was, to determine your general resistance to special attacks, right? As is, it seems to be no more than a number you must maximize if you create a character.

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 21 2005, 12:14 PM


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slimboy76
post Oct 21 2005, 12:40 PM
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The only part i dislike is sorcerer only for evil, for i am one of sorcerer fans -although warrior is my favourite- and i never created or will create evil character.

The thought of never to played sorcerer again is really a blow in my face....... crybaby.gif

The sorcerer have already a devastating spells and if in Mordor 1 you can fight humans, sorcerer will definitely evil in nature, but since you only kill monsters, i think there's no problem.


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post Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM
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Splitting healer from thief *and* lowering the spell level of Cap-of-Death-like items would make the game unbeatable by soloers, especially considering we're going to have more than 15 floors and thus stronger 'regular' monsters. IMO we should touch the guild/race resctrictions only if there is strong comunity request for it. I can certainly agree that healers should be of good alignment, but moving guilds around has some drastic effect on the game balance.


Human
A spell to resist aging attacks? Maybe. Maybe not. wink.gif The problem is that there needs be something that makes apparently little damage and that can't be resisted. In that regard age is perfect.

Gnome
Actually I always have a gnome in my party. whistling.gif Ogres are much worse. I agree on increasing the usefulness of Charisma. If I'm not mistaken, formulas potentially influenced by charisma are: Charm spells (currently no charisma effect), Bind spells (no effect either), binding level breaking (no effect), contentedness level breaking (no effect), chance of leaving (charisma has an effect) and chance to turn hostile (powerful effect). Which of these should charisma have an effect on?

Elf
If you don't read the code, Int and Wis aren't really distinguishable from one another, but apart from that they have a fairly strong effect, both through SP and as requisites for high level spells. 300 SP is just too much, IMO. It's more than two scrolls of spells more than the next most powerful character. Each trip. blink.gif A small increase shouldn't upset game balance, though.

Ogre
The crux of the problem. sad.gif I'm extremely intrigued by the resistance addition thing. ohmy.gifk: Although you would only add the highest between spell and item resistance to your natural resistance. Making their efficacy incremental would make the game rather harder for beginning spell-casters, but from the posts I read in the MXP forum I think we'll end up with it.

Troll
It's obvious DA thought highly of ninjas as a guild, since it's the only real reason to play Trolls. Their high exp modifier is only justified if swings are going to be M2-style. Otherwise we will probably have to lower it.

Guilds
In M1 there are basically these abilities (best guild with that ability in brackets):
1. high average melee damage (warrior)
2. critical hits (warrior)
3. backstab (thief)
4. swings (ninja)
5. trap disarming (thief)
6. chest unlocking (thief)
7. healing (healer)
8. charming (mage)
9. location/movement spells (seeker)
10. perception (seeker)
11. damage spells (various guilds, depending on the spell class; overall the strongest is healer)
12. resistance spells (sorceror)
13. other utility spells (sorceror for protection etc.)

I may have overlooked a few abilities unsure.gif
That's not counting damage spells as separate abilities. There's enough abilities that could be reshuffled between guilds, but we're rather trying to increase the usefulness of second-best guilds (scavenger, paladin, villain and wizard), by giving them unique special abilities. Believe me, it won't be necessary to have a scavenger in your party, but it's going to be a lot less of a hassle if you have one. sneaky.gif

Paladin
I believe you are right on the paladin/mage bug, Grobblewobble.

Mage
We could make the ring of entrapment cursed. unsure.gif We're anyway lowering the spell level of most items. Good point on the OoLD, but I'm not thrilled by the idea of restricting their use.

Sigil of Ancients: but that would mean immunity (or ridicoulously high resistance) to poison and disease too. Nobody is immune to, say, fire, so why should anybody be immune to a high level attack like age? huh.gif What you suggest basically takes advantage of having constitution go where it isn't supposed to go.

Companions: the problem is shall we say ontologically linked to the nature of companions: you go to level x, charm a monster, and expect it to survive fighting dozens of monsters of more or less equivalent strength. Casting resistances would increase their survivability marginally, IMO: you'd still be confronted to physical damage. While healing from other characters would increase their lifespan.
Personally, I like the fact that you can carry only one companion. How many dead people can you carry around with no loss of mobility? It would make sense to be able to carry more than one if they were smaller than you though.

Constitution: hp bonus from high Con is the most visible feature of constitution itself. If we dropped it players would dump the stat. Although it's possible to reduce the extra hp you get through Con. dntknw.gif

Charm resistance could be substituted by a charm modifier, it could work like damage modifier, applied on max hp of the monster. That would make charming some monsters extremely hard but not impossible, provided you are of high level enough. However, some monsters should be uncharmeable regardless. It would be pretty lame if you could charm the final boss or some specific bosses, don't you think?

Thief, sorcerer and mage restricted to evil? That's an awful lot of guilds to just balance healer for good.

QUOTE (Grobble)
The original intention of a constitution score was, to determine your general resistance to special attacks, right? As is, it seems to be no more than a number you must maximize if you create a character.

That could work if there weren't already racial resistances. I regard Constitution as toughness. Just about every number in the game should be maximised, if you want to win. hypocrite.gif


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Nudibranch
post Oct 21 2005, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Crusher Junior @ Oct 20 2005, 07:13 PM)
Mages could be restricted to neutral. This would make more sense since a good character probably won't be charming an evil creature and vice versa.


Okay, this also addresses Aardless's point that making Mage, Sorcerer, and Thief evil is too lopsided.

QUOTE (Crusher Junior @ Oct 20 2005, 07:13 PM)
Amulet of Sigils is way too overpowered. Being resistant to aging makes the age limit of races useless.


Not if they were extremely rare. I've been to Level 15 more than 1000 times and I've seen 170 Reapers of Souls. If they dropped a Sigil once every 20 times or so, I'd have collected 8 or 9 by now -- enough to provide immunity to 1 1/2 characters (I have a party of 3). My characters are level 700-800, I've been sending them to 15 over and over and over again, and they still wouldn't be immune to Aging.

As long as Sigils were rare and very-high-level items, total immunity would only come very very late in the game, if at all. Plus you're going to be adding floors with even tougher monsters (yay!), and if they have Aging attacks, Aging resistance will become vital -- or Dragon's Blood must become more common. I find the Sigil approach more interesting, although, admittedly, it is my idea. wink.gif

QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 21 2005, 08:03 AM)
Honestly, I think giants would need to be restricted from the Seeker guild to make this solution really work. If that would mean they are no longer used as often, I can only see it as a good thing. As is, they are part of virtually any party.


They're part of many parties because of their great fighting, and that wouldn't change if they couldn't be Seekers. I don't think their Seeker abilities imbalance the game -- they're useful but not critical, and they help to keep Giants from being totally one-dimensional. If nothing else, Giants would have no use for their SP otherwise. dry.gif

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 01:50 PM)
moving guilds around has some drastic effect on the game balance.


The guilds do definitely need rebalancing, though. Every guild should have a purpose, some reason to take them instead of a "better" guild. Same thing for the races. Moving guilds in and out of races and alignments seems to be a pretty straightforward way to achieve that balance -- as long as it's done right.

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 01:50 PM)
Elf
If you don't read the code, Int and Wis aren't really distinguishable from one another, but apart from that they have a fairly strong effect, both through SP and as requisites for high level spells. 300 SP is just too much, IMO. It's more than two scrolls of spells more than the next most powerful character. Each trip. blink.gif A small increase shouldn't upset game balance, though.


Other races have from 220-240 SP, so it'd be 1 1/2 scrolls of spells. Elves are non-Warriors with poor physical stats, so it'd be their single, not-excessive advantage. Stat requirements for spells are trivial to meet with maxed-out stats, which occurs early in the game. Elves wouldn't necesarily start with higher Int/Wis -- they'd just have a higher cap.

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 01:50 PM)
Troll
Their high exp modifier is only justified if swings are going to be M2-style. Otherwise we will probably have to lower it.


Now that you bring it up -- racial XP modifiers are almost a non-factor in Mordor. I'd actually be in favor of ditching racial XP modifiers altogether. The only reason to make XP costs vastly different would be to try to reduce the attractiveness of a too-powerful race, and I'd rather racial abilities be balanced in the first place.

QUOTE (aardless @ Oct 21 2005, 01:50 PM)
In M1 there are basically these abilities (best guild with that ability in brackets):


I'd single out Defense score as one of the most important abilities in Mordor, and Warriors win that category. Perhaps Paladins should win it instead. hypocrite.gif

This post has been edited by Nudibranch: Oct 21 2005, 09:40 PM


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fart642000
post Oct 21 2005, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 21 2005, 08:03 AM)
Honestly, I think giants would need to be restricted from the Seeker guild to make this solution really work. If that would mean they are no longer used as often, I can only see it as a good thing. As is, they are part of virtually any party.
Without the seeker guild, they would still be a valuable in a party. After all, they're the best fighters you can get.  dwarf.gif


true, but it also badly hurts they're soloing ability (espcially with spell item tunes), which some people (myself included) use


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grobblewobble
post Oct 22 2005, 01:37 AM
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Wow, this discussion really gets going. ok2.gif

EDIT: Why are the quotes not working?

[quote=aardless]
Splitting healer from thief *and* lowering the spell level of Cap-of-Death-like items would make the game unbeatable by soloers
[/quote]
I thought the whole idea was, to make sure the generalist guilds, like ninja, would become reasonable alternatives to specialists like warrior/thiefs. In other words: that you would NOT have to join the Thief guild to win the game solo. With morkal spells, you would not have to join the Healer guild, either. As for the Cap-of-Death like items: characters of any alignment would have access to the wizard guild and WoD-like-spells. So why would there be a need for such monstrous items?
Sorry if I sounded a bit rude, but items that allow a Giant Warrior to cast spells as if he were he level 360 healer, that is what I call monstrous. Even though the monsters don't like it. tongue.gif

[quote=aardless]
A spell to resist aging attacks? Maybe. Maybe not. wink.gif
[/quote]
Probably not. But maybe Dragon's Blood could be a little less rare?

[quote=aardless]
Which of these [formulas] should charisma have an effect on?
[/quote]
IMO it should at least have a very noticeable effect on breaking bind levels or contentedness levels. And a stronger effect on the chances of monsters joining you.

[quote=aardless]
300 SP [for elves] is just too much, IMO.
[/quote]
[quote=nudibranch]
Elves are non-Warriors with poor physical stats, so it'd be their single, not-excessive advantage.
[/quote]
You could think of a compromise, like 280 spellpoints (23 max int/wis at creation and 28 with tomes). Or 270. Or 275. biggrin.gif

[quote=aardless]
I'm extremely intrigued by the resistance addition thing. ohmy.gifk: Although you would only add the highest between spell and item resistance to your natural resistance.
[/quote]
Thanks! You are the first who seems to like the idea. I think you're right that only counting the highest of item/spell resistance is better.

[quote=aardless]
Their [trolls] high exp modifier is only justified if swings are going to be M2-style.
[/quote]
The only problem is that the multiple swings in M2 seem to be overpowered. While in M1, they're hardly important beyond the second or third swing. Difficult..

[quote=aardless]
Casting resistances [on companions] would increase their survivability marginally, IMO: you'd still be confronted to physical damage.
[/quote]
But being able to give them stone resistance would make quite a difference, wouldn't it?

[quote=aardless]
It would be pretty lame if you could charm the final boss or some specific bosses, don't you think?
[/quote]
Absolutely. I was thinking of a situation where the top 1% among the monsters in the dungeon have such a high resistance/hits that they can't ever be charmed, even if you are level 999. So you could just as well make them charm resistant in the absolute, M1 kind of way. But it would be fun if the other 99% would be possible to charm, with some of them being resistant - just not totally resistant.

[quote=nudibranch]
I don't think their [giants] Seeker abilities imbalance the game
[/quote]
For me, it makes the choice between a wizard or a seeker just too obvious. As well as the choice between a Giant or an Ogre. Is it that bad if a single race has no use for its spellpoints?

[quote=fart]
but [removing the seeker guild from giants] also badly hurts they're soloing ability(espcially with spell item tunes)
[/quote]
Giants are simply not that great for solo play, IMO. They are specialists. For solo play, it is best to pick a versatile race with access to many guilds.

[quote=slimboy]
The only part i dislike is sorcerer only for evil, for i am one of sorcerer fans -although warrior is my favourite- and i never created or will create evil character.
[/quote]
It would be too bad if you couldn't play your favourite character. Is there really no chance you'd like to try evil?

This post has been edited by grobblewobble: Oct 22 2005, 01:52 AM


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fart642000
post Oct 22 2005, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (grobblewobble @ Oct 21 2005, 09:37 PM)
Giants are simply not that great for solo play, IMO. They are specialists. For solo play, it is best to pick a versatile race with access to many guilds.


yes, but argueably "completing" mordor with a giant is among one of the hardest things in mordor already, without seeker, it will be all that more a pain


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Braindead
post Oct 22 2005, 08:03 AM
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quotes overflow after a certain number grobble, so use less quotes... tongue.gif


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Keltosh
post Oct 22 2005, 08:43 AM
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Well this is too long, I can't answer eveyone... I'll just tell what I think. Let us see...
All this post suppose you will eliminate the bug that makes the CURRENT character selected the ones determining, for instance, the chances of monsters being hostiles. It should either be the first one (the leader) or the one with the best score (same reason)

Solo: well the point is, it should NOT be easy to finish the game solo. As such lowering A LOT the spell level of items and / or restricting them is fine, same with separating the guilds. The game should be tuned so that it's kind of hard to finish it with a party, with the consequence that it should be exceptionally hard to finish with a solo character. Want to play a solo pure giant and finish it? Good luck, not my problem tongue.gif If you want to finish the game solo you should (arguably) do it by choosing hybrid classes that gives you more abilities, not pure single class characters.... No powerplayers thanks biggrin.gif


Items: Ok, I'm dead set here. If you want give the non-spellacsting character classes more abilities, but KILL the spellcasting items. Well, ok, just cripple them biggrin.gif
Seriously, most items need either to be non-rechargable, or have less changes AND a significantly lower level of spellcasting (max 80 I'd say...), or be restricted to spellcasters. I know many play solo, but as of now it's insane. Just look at the helm of brilliance. Come on...
Some items should really be just erased, like the ring of entrapment.... It makes the mage completely useless

Races:
Props for the charisma increased effect, makes the gnome more useful AND it really makes sense! I'd even raise the max charisma of the gnome a point of two.
Also props for the resistances idea for the ogre.
As for the elf's spellpoints, I think 280 would be good.

Classes: Ok, long post coming

First things first, moving classes: I'm trying to think both of game balance AND what makes sense. Also one thing: in mordor you cannot as of now have good and evil characters in the same party, so I'm assuming you'll remove the limitation. Else you will have to deal with the impossibility to have an evil party with a healer...

Healer: restricting it to good makes a LOT of sense. Well, I can think of some fantasy-like series where healers are neutral too, but honestly it's best to just restrict it to good.

Sorcerer: Ok, I'm extremely against it. Why the hell restricting it to evil? In EVERYTHING the sorcerer does now, there isn't a single reason for that. It's exactly the same thing as saying that warriors cannot be good because they kill people. I dare you to show me that in an rpg I cannot be a good spellcaster who goes around frying monsters biggrin.gif If you want to put morkal spells in, you could say that only evil sorceres can cast them, and I'd be ok with it...

Mage: well........ I LIKED my good gnome, but if the charisma has increased effect.. >_>
At any rate, it makes sense that a person going around charming monsters is not good, but at the same time, saying it can only be evil .. well... I'd simply say that it can be neutral or evil.
Else.. being a mage would mean you're evil and so it would mean that no monster will ever join you, since every single one of them will attack you. So basically, if you decide to charm monsters, you'll never be joined by charm-immune monsters. A tad too much I'd say. Choosing between neutral and evil makes more sense. Charming MONSTERS after all is not THAT evil tongue.gif

Wizard: uhm .. well, the wizard never striked me as an evil specimen, but it does have all those kill spells and word of death... So I suppose it's ok

Thief: same reasoning as the mage here. Ok, not good for sure, but I'd say that a thief can be neutral. A master of opening lock and steling from MONSTERS tongue.gif and backstabbing them...

Hybrid classes in general: well, apart from the wizard who's powerful enough, I think they should all receive more abilities AND more items coverage tongue.gif (NOT spellcasting items.. items like, for example, a nice paladin sword and such..) They should be viable alternatives after all...


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