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Braindead's Mordor Site - Return to Mordor: The Depths Of Dejenol _ General Discussion _ Some questions

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 3 2019, 05:46 PM

I don't think I've seen these on the wiki or on a cursory forum search:

How do you do the optimal leveling path on a fresh install? Do you get 5 or 10 levels without con bonuses or do you actually grind your way to max con at level 1?

How do charms bind strength deteriorate? Is charisma a factor such that gnome is a significantly better charmer than anything else? Or do charms usually die so fast that it isnt too relevant?

Does invisibility on a PC actually halve damage taken? I feel like I get hit too hard with it up for it to be working. Or maybe that outcast goblin actually does hit for 10 normally? Or do tons of things see invis?

Am I correctly understanding the thieving formula that a scavenger is actually only about 20% worse at disarming traps than a similar-level thief? And ninja only 5ish% worse than that?

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 3 2019, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 3 2019, 11:46 AM) *
I don't think I've seen these on the wiki or on a cursory forum search:

How do you do the optimal leveling path on a fresh install? Do you get 5 or 10 levels without con bonuses or do you actually grind your way to max con at level 1?

How do charms bind strength deteriorate? Is charisma a factor such that gnome is a significantly better charmer than anything else? Or do charms usually die so fast that it isnt too relevant?

Does invisibility on a PC actually halve damage taken? I feel like I get hit too hard with it up for it to be working. Or maybe that outcast goblin actually does hit for 10 normally? Or do tons of things see invis?

Am I correctly understanding the thieving formula that a scavenger is actually only about 20% worse at disarming traps than a similar-level thief? And ninja only 5ish% worse than that?



1. Everyone plays differently. If you want to only use one character ever on the install then you will need to do a lot of level-1 play to try and max out. I personally just always assume my first character on an account is a throwaway and so just create an ogre or giant who can solo around until they can get enough +con boosters for another character, though that admittedly is more of a legacy tactic.
I think the full OLR experience does assume some level of legacy. Fresh characters can max their natural CON upon creation and still get some points (unless you're a Morloch) but they won't be getting the sick +5 extra from stat boosters.
Another thing you could do would be to try and maximize your level-specific points by leveling warrior to 28, and then just leveling other classes to 28 while you try and build up the stats to get to Wizard.
At that point it's just min-maxing for a few points of HP though so it might not be all that worthwhile.

2. I know that the particular charm spell used is a factor, and that injured monsters tend to lose bind levels faster than healthy ones, but I don't know the exact formula. Higher bind levels also tend to break a lot slower than low ones - once you cross the "perfectly bound" threshold you shouldn't be too worried. For low levels it isn't too important but if you find particularly strong companions you'll want to be careful what you charm them with - Charm Dragon from a purple sash, for instance, doesn't tend to last very long since the bind isn't all that high, but a Soul Entrapment will bind them really well.

3. Invisibility only works on monsters who can't see invisible, though that shouldn't matter much in early levels. And yes, Outcast Goblins can hit for 10+ normally - their Att just sucks so much that they won't normally hit anyone with better than leather/copper armor.

4. As far as the guild stats formulas, I believe they are more or less logarithmic than linear. So a 12 is significantly better than a 9. Lower down that means not as much, so the difference between Scavenger and Ninja thieving skill, for instance, isn't too meaningful, but the difference between a Scavenger and a Thief is very significant. The best way to compare is probably by looking at the Multiple Swings skill listings - Ninja being so much higher is indicative of the fact that they can get 2 extra swings by the time most other listed classes can even get one. That same sort of trend likely carries through with the other guild stat numbers.


I don't know all these for facts, but after a lot of play and talking to other people these are my assumptions on how things work. I still learn new things everyday though so all this could be wrong.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 3 2019, 07:13 PM

I know some formulas are not linear. Combat ability squares the guild modifier, for example, so 12 warrior is a LOT better than a 9 seeker. But the thieving formula just has multiplication of the thief mod in it, and guild level gets a log I think.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 3 2019, 07:19 PM

Oh, if you're looking at the raw formula, then yes. Thieving ability in particular is only slightly worse for Ninja than for Scavenger. The 20% difference between Thief and Scavenger adds up to quite a bit, especially at high levels, but the 5% between scavenger and ninja honestly doesn't feel that much different. Ninja is just a much more exclusive class than Scavenger (only accessible to humans and trolls) which is why scavenger is leveled so much more frequently than ninja.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 6 2019, 03:48 PM

What are all the consequences of alignment?

Obviously it affects guild access and item use. And I know good characters can't attack good companions, and that good and evil characters can't be in a party together. What else is there?

I remember seeing something about how often good/neutral/evil monsters will be automatically hostile when you come into a room based on your alignment, but I cant find the article or post about that.


Edit - my search fu finally came through. http://dejenol.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1332&st=0

Posted by: BLauritson Jul 6 2019, 04:06 PM

I don't know all the specifics, but I know that Good monsters will always start off friendly to Good characters (not sure how that works in a party but it's definitely true for solo characters). Not sure whether Good monsters can turn hostile to Good characters based on low charisma though.

By the same token, Good monsters will always be hostile to Evil characters. Evil monsters are automatically hostile to everyone regardless of other considerations.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Jul 8 2019, 03:33 PM

I don't know for sure if "always" is true but it seems to be more often than not. (It can get annoying actually later on because unleashing a big spell is impossible round 1 vs a peaced enemy).

I do know that a Good character cannot willingly engage in combat against a good-aligned companion, so you will have to change their alignment in order to do that (only becomes a factor for quest-shopping but still can get annoying).

Beyond that, guilds and items are the main restrictions. Plus that using opposite-aligned stuff counts as cursed, either locking it to your character (if equipment) or giving negative stats (if consumeables). Basically don't try to consume stuff without ID'ing it unless you're desperate.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 8 2019, 09:18 PM

Cool cool.

I'm probably around 4/5 for clicking on a faster spell to initiate combat, then hitting a big one before the small one actually goes off. So that's not so bad.

I'm enjoying when nasty neutral creatures like item-destroying slimes spawn as peaced though. I can just leave them alone and know the room is safe until a respawn, which takes quite a while without clearing it.

Posted by: fischsemmel Jul 12 2019, 04:08 AM

What exactly does defending do?

Posted by: Roland Jul 12 2019, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Jul 12 2019, 12:08 AM) *
What exactly does defending do?

It reportedly increases the character's defense by 50%. But casting a combat spell reportedly has the same effect.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Aug 28 2019, 03:33 AM

I have my own question:
Is there a way to move Hands off of slot 1? I seem to vaguely remember doing this on characters long ago, but if it is possible I've forgotten. Hands cannot be traded, and the 's'wap command cannot swap with slot 1.

Posted by: Mordion Sep 5 2019, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Aug 27 2019, 11:33 PM) *
I have my own question:
Is there a way to move Hands off of slot 1? I seem to vaguely remember doing this on characters long ago, but if it is possible I've forgotten. Hands cannot be traded, and the 's'wap command cannot swap with slot 1.

Did you try drag and drop?

If you find a way, put your best item there. Slime traps can’t touch the first slot.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 5 2019, 04:50 PM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 4 2019, 08:14 PM) *
Did you try drag and drop?

If you find a way, put your best item there. Slime traps can’t touch the first slot.

That's why I want to know, laugh.gif
Drag and drop hasn't worked for me, it just refuses to move.

Posted by: Mordion Sep 6 2019, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 5 2019, 12:50 PM) *
That's why I want to know, laugh.gif
Drag and drop hasn't worked for me, it just refuses to move.


I just checked the source. Drag and drop and the S key both exclude the first slot.
FRMCHAR3.FRM:1250
MAINMOD2.BAS:2601

It might be possible through save file editing, but some functions check for the item ID of hands and others check the slot ID and assume hands. It would take a while that every function checks in a way that works in your favor.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 6 2019, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Mordion @ Sep 5 2019, 08:17 PM) *
I just checked the source. Drag and drop and the S key both exclude the first slot.
FRMCHAR3.FRM:1250
MAINMOD2.BAS:2601

It might be possible through save file editing, but some functions check for the item ID of hands and others check the slot ID and assume hands. It would take a while that every function checks in a way that works in your favor.


I suppose that was probably from a global decision that decided that a character shouldn't be able to just get rid of their hands (or lose them to a slime), and so the easiest way to do that was to just lock hands to slot 1 and then restrict everything else from interacting with slot 1.

Well if I have to edit core game files to get that to happen then I don't think I'll be willing to take that plunge. Still, it's interesting to at least know how those interactions work.
If I remembered doing that before, it's possible that I did it on the shareware version, which may not have had as strict restrictions on Slot 1 as the full release version does, because I know I've never edited the actual files beyond just swapping out the files for the T'Mana mod.

Posted by: Mordion Sep 7 2019, 11:34 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 6 2019, 01:05 PM) *
I suppose that was probably from a global decision that decided that a character shouldn't be able to just get rid of their hands (or lose them to a slime), and so the easiest way to do that was to just lock hands to slot 1 and then restrict everything else from interacting with slot 1.

Well if I have to edit core game files to get that to happen then I don't think I'll be willing to take that plunge. Still, it's interesting to at least know how those interactions work.
If I remembered doing that before, it's possible that I did it on the shareware version, which may not have had as strict restrictions on Slot 1 as the full release version does, because I know I've never edited the actual files beyond just swapping out the files for the T'Mana mod.


I never bothered to decompile the shareware version. Comparing versions would make for quite the archeology dig.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 16 2019, 01:37 PM

So... do I have this right?

Monsters that use breath attacks and spells will hit a character and all of that character's companions even if the spell normally couldn't (like, I've had draining touch hit me and also kill companions even though it's a 1 stack 1 creature spell for players).

But monsters attacking a party with breath or spells only hit a single character (and any of that character's companions) at a time? I just fought 5 mundragons and I heard the breath attack sound a couple times but my back two people were totally unhurt even though the front one got hit for like 150.

What a huge pain for soloers and a huge perk of parties! Though... if fighting a number of breathers, like a bunch of stacks of flame devils, does each individual pick a target separately so that odds are everyone will get breathed on? But each breath only hits one character? Or does the whole stack breath as one?

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 26 2019, 02:14 AM

I think ive been noticing party melee killing monsters in group #2 sometimes before all the stuff in group #1 is dead, even when I haven't reassigned anyone's targets.

It's even happened that group #2 got wipes out entiely once before #1 was all dead!

Whats up with this? Are my eyes playing a trick on me?

Posted by: Roland Sep 26 2019, 03:22 AM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 25 2019, 10:14 PM) *
I think ive been noticing party melee killing monsters in group #2 sometimes before all the stuff in group #1 is dead, even when I haven't reassigned anyone's targets.

It's even happened that group #2 got wipes out entiely once before #1 was all dead!

Whats up with this? Are my eyes playing a trick on me?

If you have a companion that uses attack spells or breath weapons, it might kill the weak monsters in secondary slots while leaving the more powerful monsters in slot 1 alive.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 26 2019, 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Roland @ Sep 25 2019, 11:22 PM) *
If you have a companion that uses attack spells or breath weapons, it might kill the weak monsters in secondary slots while leaving the more powerful monsters in slot 1 alive.


I only very rarely have companions, charmed just to return to town with them, and generally not companions that are strong enough. This is possible but not too likely I don't think. I'll make sure I notice if I have them or not the next time I see this happen.

Like I said, it may just be a trick on my eyes from the screen refresh rate or something, but I swear one time I even saw the second group gone with the first group still present at the end of a melee round.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 27 2019, 10:40 AM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 26 2019, 06:56 AM) *
I only very rarely have companions, charmed just to return to town with them, and generally not companions that are strong enough. This is possible but not too likely I don't think. I'll make sure I notice if I have them or not the next time I see this happen.

Like I said, it may just be a trick on my eyes from the screen refresh rate or something, but I swear one time I even saw the second group gone with the first group still present at the end of a melee round.


Yep. Just had it happen with a group of 2 fiends, 1 twisted devil, 2 imps. I was targetted on my 4th party member and after the first round of melee combat, with no companions or spells, there was 1 fiend, 0 twisted devils, and 2 imps still alive. The second group got attacked and killed somehow before the first group, on which I was (by default) targetted, was wiped out.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 27 2019, 03:28 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 27 2019, 04:40 AM) *
Yep. Just had it happen with a group of 2 fiends, 1 twisted devil, 2 imps. I was targetted on my 4th party member and after the first round of melee combat, with no companions or spells, there was 1 fiend, 0 twisted devils, and 2 imps still alive. The second group got attacked and killed somehow before the first group, on which I was (by default) targetted, was wiped out.


What were your companions? Were they breath weapon companions or spellcasters?
I have noticed that breathing companions don't always breathe (same with actual monsters with breath weapons - they don't always breathe, though I feel companions breathe less than angry monsters. Might just be perception bias though). When a companion with a breath weapon uses it, I also don't know exactly how many targets it can hit. I've been attacking a group of ants or slaves with some white or mun dragons and sometimes they clear the entire 4 groups in a single round while others they only hit like 5-6 targets. I'm wondering if the game calculates each companions' chance to breathe separately.

I'm pretty sure that only one spellcaster minion can cast a spell in any round, but I'm not sure that rule applies for breathing companions. They do all act in the same combat frame though (and each have their own chance to breathe), so this would be rather hard to definitively test without looking directly at the game code.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 27 2019, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Sep 27 2019, 11:28 AM) *
What were your companions? Were they breath weapon companions or spellcasters?
I have noticed that breathing companions don't always breathe (same with actual monsters with breath weapons - they don't always breathe, though I feel companions breathe less than angry monsters. Might just be perception bias though). When a companion with a breath weapon uses it, I also don't know exactly how many targets it can hit. I've been attacking a group of ants or slaves with some white or mun dragons and sometimes they clear the entire 4 groups in a single round while others they only hit like 5-6 targets. I'm wondering if the game calculates each companions' chance to breathe separately.

I'm pretty sure that only one spellcaster minion can cast a spell in any round, but I'm not sure that rule applies for breathing companions. They do all act in the same combat frame though (and each have their own chance to breathe), so this would be rather hard to definitively test without looking directly at the game code.


I guess you missed the part where I said I didn't have any companions huh? Haha

Nah. This time there was no alternative possibilty, guaranteed. My whole party was meleeing, I had no companions, they weren't monsters that can steal and therefore disappear early, etc.

Posted by: MythrilZenith Sep 27 2019, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (fischsemmel @ Sep 27 2019, 09:53 AM) *
I guess you missed the part where I said I didn't have any companions huh? Haha

Nah. This time there was no alternative possibilty, guaranteed. My whole party was meleeing, I had no companions, they weren't monsters that can steal and therefore disappear early, etc.


Ah, you said party, not companion. Whoops! I totally missed that laugh.gif

Yeah, I don't know what could be going on. It's possible there may be alternate party settings for primary target group? I know that I have gotten into the habit of taking out the weaker monsters (groups 2-3) before the stronger ones on my solo char because I can more easily guarantee a kill and thus an extra swing, but I manually opt into that every time by hitting the '2' key. I'm not sure why your party is attacking differently. I'd double-check party attack buffers and defaults for any of these possibilities.

Posted by: fischsemmel Sep 27 2019, 05:40 PM

Yeah, I thought to check that too. Everyone was set to the fight option, and as far as I can tell the times I tried to check with quick Ns during combat, everyone always defaults to attacking group 1 unless you use 2, 3, or 4 (or a mouse click) to direct them at a different group.

I have no idea why it is happening, heh.

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