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> Slime room on 9, Spawning weirdness
Roland
post Jan 15 2020, 12:07 AM
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Until very recently, I had always found the darkness room at 1,6,9 empty. Then I somehow stumbled on to the fact that it is connected to another room - 5,12,8. I found that if I left the monsters at 5,12,8 alone, I would find the same encounter at 1,6,9. But the encounter was never the Cleanups that were supposed to spawn at 1,6,9 - it was always Thieves, Humanoids, Reptiles, or Insects, as per 5,12,8.

Last night I discovered another piece of the puzzle. While advancing as a Sorcerer, my Morloch has been taking the chute from 7 to 10 and then working his way up from there. So he hit 1,6,9 before 5,12,8. Twice last night, I found Blue Slimes at 1,6,9. I got excited because I still need a few Blue Slimes for my confinement-filling project. In order to keep the Blue Slimes from being killed, I cleared the path from their room to the 7/6 stairs. When I went back to 1,6,9 to charm them, the first time the room was empty! On my next expedition, I refrained from killing the Thief encounter at 5,12,8, hoping that would preserve the Blue Slimes. But that also failed. When I returned to 1,6,9, the Blue Slimes had been replaced with Thieves!

So, here is how it seems to work: If you set foot in 5,12,8, whatever is in that room is immediately replicated in 1,6,9. If you kill the encounter in either place, it is dead in both. The only way to make Cleanups spawn at 1,6,9 is to enter that room before entering 5,12,8. And then you need to kill or charm the Cleanups before you enter 5,12,8, or they will be replaced with the encounter at 5,12,8.

According to SuperSeer, Cleanups are the only possible encounter at 1,6,9. So if you're looking for a Blue Slime or a Grey Ooze (or the rare Slippery Mire or Jubilex), that's the place to look, but you have to approach the room without first passing through 5,12,8.
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Mordion
post Jan 15 2020, 05:26 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Jan 14 2020, 07:07 PM) *
Until very recently, I had always found the darkness room at 1,6,9 empty. Then I somehow stumbled on to the fact that it is connected to another room - 5,12,8. I found that if I left the monsters at 5,12,8 alone, I would find the same encounter at 1,6,9. But the encounter was never the Cleanups that were supposed to spawn at 1,6,9 - it was always Thieves, Humanoids, Reptiles, or Insects, as per 5,12,8.

Last night I discovered another piece of the puzzle. While advancing as a Sorcerer, my Morloch has been taking the chute from 7 to 10 and then working his way up from there. So he hit 1,6,9 before 5,12,8. Twice last night, I found Blue Slimes at 1,6,9. I got excited because I still need a few Blue Slimes for my confinement-filling project. In order to keep the Blue Slimes from being killed, I cleared the path from their room to the 7/6 stairs. When I went back to 1,6,9 to charm them, the first time the room was empty! On my next expedition, I refrained from killing the Thief encounter at 5,12,8, hoping that would preserve the Blue Slimes. But that also failed. When I returned to 1,6,9, the Blue Slimes had been replaced with Thieves!

So, here is how it seems to work: If you set foot in 5,12,8, whatever is in that room is immediately replicated in 1,6,9. If you kill the encounter in either place, it is dead in both. The only way to make Cleanups spawn at 1,6,9 is to enter that room before entering 5,12,8. And then you need to kill or charm the Cleanups before you enter 5,12,8, or they will be replaced with the encounter at 5,12,8.

According to SuperSeer, Cleanups are the only possible encounter at 1,6,9. So if you're looking for a Blue Slime or a Grey Ooze (or the rare Slippery Mire or Jubilex), that's the place to look, but you have to approach the room without first passing through 5,12,8.


I tried to reproduce it and for me it's linked with 5,10,8 which happens to share a room ID with the slime room. If that's the case it's probably the case that when you take the teleporter it saves the room state of the current room ID after it changes what floor you're on.

I checked the source and, while I can't find the bug, I can confirm that when rooms are saved and loaded it's hard coded to always use the current floor of the lead character when saving. So if it saves the current room after changing your floor it will save the contents to the room with the same ID on the new floor. If this is is how the bug actually works, it should be possible to trigger it with any inter-floor teleporter or chute.

If you want to experiment faster, exit the game while in the dungeon and then delete mdata10.mdr to wipe the dungeon state.
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MythrilZenith
post Jan 15 2020, 07:46 PM
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Just so I'm making sure we're on the same page, standard notation is (X,Y,Z) so horizontal, vertical, depth, so this is the fog room in 9 just above the stud room?

If this is the case for THAT room, I'm wondering if there's also another linked-room bug with the supposed-Shadow Serpent lair on 12 (right before Mother of Serpents, at 11,26,12). Or if that's just a dungeon coding bug where nothing is actually coded to spawn there, or some other weird interaction.

Also, deleting mdata10.mdr rebuilds dungeon state? Good to know, in case I'm ever trying to grind 14-15 and nothing is respawning.
EDIT: Oh yeah you asked me to try deleting that to see if it fixed the spawn rate bug (like at least a year ago). Heck, at this point I might as well just try it, since it's not like I'm needing to grind floors 4 or 7 anymore and having them respawn so quickly has become more annoying than anything else.

This post has been edited by MythrilZenith: Jan 15 2020, 07:48 PM


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I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

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Roland
post Jan 15 2020, 07:52 PM
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Is this the only pair of rooms that shares the same ID, or are there others?

There are several other rooms that I always find empty, so I'm wondering if this problem might account for them too.
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Roland
post Jan 15 2020, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jan 15 2020, 02:46 PM) *
Just so I'm making sure we're on the same page, standard notation is (X,Y,Z) so horizontal, vertical, depth, so this is the fog room in 9 just above the stud room?

Yes, we're talking about the room just north of the stud room on the west side of 9.
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Mordion
post Jan 15 2020, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Jan 15 2020, 02:52 PM) *
Is this the only pair of rooms that shares the same ID, or are there others?

There are several other rooms that I always find empty, so I'm wondering if this problem might account for them too.


Each square of the map has a room number. Squares that are part of the same room all have the same number. Monsters and Treasure are located by the room number not by the squares.

There are a number of known map inconsistencies where two different conceptual rooms share the same number and so they are linked and have the same contents. Kill monsters in one spot and then they're gone from the other.

This thread is about a new sort of bug.

The game only knows about the current room you're standing in. All the other room contents are saved in MDATA10.MDR. When you leave a room it writes the current room to the file and then loads the contents of the new room. Addendum to the above, room numbers are re-used between floors but they don't overlap because each floor is in a separate part of the file.

This new bug is where the current room is from floor 8 room 43. When you hit the teleporter it changes your floor first and then saves the current room. This means that the guts of floor 8 room 43 are cloned into floor 9 room 43. Afterward the guts of the destination room are loaded as usual and the game continues. I think this could happen with any chute or teleporter.

This may also be related the source of the respawn speed bug because it's not counting the clone as a spawn but it will count down after you clear it.
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Roland
post Jan 16 2020, 12:21 AM
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Thanks, Mordion. That is clearer. So the thing that causes the wrong encounter to appear on level 9 is not entering the room on level 8, but leaving it via the teleporter to 9. You suggested this could also happen with chutes. What about stairs?
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Mordion
post Jan 16 2020, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Jan 15 2020, 07:21 PM) *
Thanks, Mordion. That is clearer. So the thing that causes the wrong encounter to appear on level 9 is not entering the room on level 8, but leaving it via the teleporter to 9. You suggested this could also happen with chutes. What about stairs?


First let me say that everything I've posted is partially speculative because I don't have all the code and it's hard to trace the flow of the code because what I have isn't laid out well or even labeled...

The code for hitting a teleporter and falling/following down a chute are part of the same function. But it is a different function from taking the stairs or taking a chute (with the 't' key).

I would wager that the bug doesn't happen when taking stairs because someone would have noticed by now.

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Mordion
post Jan 16 2020, 01:36 AM
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I did some playing around. It appears to work with any inter-floor teleporter. It does not work if you go through a door and hit the teleporter. It does not seem work with chutes.

Here's a list of bugged spots.

(T)eleporter at x,y,z [could bug the room at] x2,y2,z2 (room #) [nice spawns]

T 18, 11, 2 => 9, 2, 1 (room #57)
T 17, 13, 2 => 22, 22, 3 (room #57)
T 20, 30, 2 => 18, 17, 1 (room #98)
T 2, 13, 3 => 26, 25, 4 (room #114) Dragon
T 8, 23, 3 => 1, 24, 5 (room #146) Indigini
T 22, 23, 3 => 10, 6, 4 (room #58)
T 29, 28, 4 => 3, 28, 5 (room #143)
T 20, 20, 4 => 6, 18, 5 (room #158)
T 22, 20, 4 => 6, 18, 5 (room #158)
T 30, 27, 5 => 11, 7, 6 (room #69) Dragon
T 23, 20, 5 => 15, 12, 4 (room #48)
T 19, 20, 5 => 15, 12, 4 (room #48)
T 7, 28, 6 => 1, 25, 8 (room #6) Mythical
T 30, 10, 6 => 15, 19, 7 (room #108)
T 5, 7, 8 => 1, 6, 9 (room #43)
T 6, 7, 8 => 1, 6, 9 (room #43)
T 16, 24, 8 => 1, 31, 9 (room #115)
T 4, 27, 9 => 4, 25, 8 (room #7)
T 5, 8, 9 => 11, 7, 8 (room #50)
T 6, 8, 9 => 11, 7, 8 (room #50)
T 8, 26, 10 => 14, 18, 11 (room #63)
T 5, 20, 11 => 28, 20, 9 (room #71)
T 24, 26, 11 => 27, 26, 12 (room #25)
T 26, 11, 12 => 20, 8, 13 (room #59)
T 13, 8, 13 => 23, 7, 12 (room #91)
T 13, 4, 14 => 14, 24, 15 (room #131) Indigini
T 13, 3, 15 => 22, 30, 14 (room #55)

This post has been edited by Mordion: Jan 16 2020, 02:11 AM
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MythrilZenith
post Jan 16 2020, 03:56 PM
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I'm wondering why the two of you have different linked rooms - Roland saying it's 5,12,8 but you saying it's 5,10,8. 5,10,8 makes sense with the given information while 5,12,8 does not.

(In my summary I will be using a little bit of programming-adjacent language just as simple short-hand, but I don't actually know all of the programming specifics so don't lynch me on this).

If I had to hazard a guess as to why teleporters can proc this bug but chutes, stairs and (I assume) the Teleport spell don't, it's because teleporters don't call every function the same way or in the same order. With stairs (and others), I assume they count you as leaving the prior room and then entering a new room, but with teleporters you seem to enter the new room before leaving the old one, if that makes sense. This would explain why the room number is repopulated after movement.

This also explains why it only counts as being after movement when you don't cross a door, because crossing a door also calls the "leaving previous room" function, and then the "square landed on" is called to check for teleporters, chutes, pits, etc. and THEN the new room is loaded. This ordering may also help explain the Pit bug, where sometimes if you fall in a pit and take damage as soon as you enter a room, the room does not populate with new monsters - different functions and calculations override others, and some information gets lost.

Now all that's left is to actively test each of these potential rooms and find out if this holds true for them, or if it's just a unique interaction with the 8-to-9 teleport room.


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I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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Mordion
post Jan 18 2020, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jan 16 2020, 10:56 AM) *
I'm wondering why the two of you have different linked rooms - Roland saying it's 5,12,8 but you saying it's 5,10,8. 5,10,8 makes sense with the given information while 5,12,8 does not.


I was wondering that myself, but I double-checked my coordinates and they reproduce the bug.

QUOTE (MythrilZenith @ Jan 16 2020, 10:56 AM) *
Now all that's left is to actively test each of these potential rooms and find out if this holds true for them, or if it's just a unique interaction with the 8-to-9 teleport room.


I verified the two teleporters on 2. It was a bit of a pain because the bugged rooms are usually on the opposite ends of the dungeon. I expect the whole list to work because there's nothing special about level 8.

I flagged the dragon ones because they could be used to speed up gold farming. 1. clone a dragon room with chest. 2. clear the clone. 3. go back and reclone the original. But unfortunately, there were only two and the bugged rooms are inconveniently located relative to the teleporter exit.

If there was a deep mythical-spawning one it would be game breaking. You could wait for a pariah with a chest and then farm the clones until you can't hold any more blessings.
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