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BangleTiger
post Apr 21 2020, 05:34 AM
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Hi all,

Long time lurker and fan of Mordor 1.1. A variety of influencing factors led me here, including MythrilZenith's youtube series. Upon arrival a week or so ago, I fell in love with some of the stories/legacies that have been shared on this site. Roland's solo Morloch, MythrilZenith's solo Elf, The return of Lord Fnorgle, and so many others.

I only ever played the shareware version, so floors 4 and beyond are myopic to me. Decades after falling in love with this game, I'm finally buying a copy.

...apparently I made an account here 6 years ago (which means I was lurking for a few years before that). Funny how you sometimes wind up back at a place thought long forgotten.

TL;DR Greetings.

I have made an initial neutral giant, Prometheus, to get accustomed to playing in 2020 on a virtual machine and map out a bit while collecting some tomes. I have no idea whether I want to play a party, a solo character, or multiple solo characters, so I'm open to suggestions. I know this isn't an easy game, but I'm no slouch...looking for something memorable.

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BLauritson
post Apr 21 2020, 06:55 AM
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Welcome BangleTiger, it's great to have you join us. I can absolutely relate to that calling urge to return to Mordor many years after its initial discovery smile.gif

Depending how familiar you are with the game and the different guilds, it might be worth creating solo characters initially to get used to the guilds you're interested in, as solo characters are much easier to manage directly. As and when you're comfortable, or you've found a group you enjoy playing with, there's nothing stopping you from combining those solo chars into a party later on.

That's actually what I did when I first got myself back into Mordor a couple of years ago, played with a few solos and eventually put them together in a party once I felt more confident they could look after themselves while I got used to managing a party again. Parties can definitely advance through the depths more quickly and survive deeper than solo characters of the same level can, but by the same token solo characters will advance their guild levels more quickly (at least on a per-encounter basis, I've no idea which is more efficient time-wise biggrin.gif) so it's worth experimenting with both and seeing which you come to prefer.

And as always there are always knowledgeable people around here who can advise (I've never actually completed the game so there are definitely others more experienced than I who can share their wisdom too!).


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Roland
post Apr 21 2020, 05:15 PM
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Welcome, BangleTiger. One thing to keep in mind as you create characters is that the game is strongly biased in favor of neutral alignment. The most essential guilds, Healer and Thief, as well as the best races, Dwarf, Osiri, and Giant, must be neutral. To choose to play a non-neutral solo character is to take on extra challenge. That's probably not what you want for your first character.

You'll need several abilities, and therefore several guilds. It takes a lot of grinding to get all of those guilds to a useful level in a single character. A multi-character party can level faster because it can run deeper.
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BangleTiger
post Apr 22 2020, 05:10 AM
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Thanks for the welcome and recommendations.

Level 1 is fully mapped. My giant has died a few times already, but mostly due to negligence of the risks of mapping. Teleporters, pits, and one unfortunate encounter with a pair of invisible enemies that did....a lot of spell damage. Ironically enough, Prometheus got his revenge. Well he was forced to get his revenge via an early warrior quest to kill an enchanter. I immediately remembered what my invisible adversaries were and sought out justice.

Tomes and potions are being gathered. I think I can handle running a party and can do some initial setup to get some baseline hits via the low level hit mechanic.

I tend to like a bit of unconventional spice in my RPGs, so it is a bit of a shame that hybrid classes are outshined by the Warrior/Thief/Healer combos in party play. Just how awful is it to use hybrids in a party?

I'm letting some friends write their own characters for my party in order to make it a bit more personal. My brother will be a Dwarf Healer/?? (I know optimal would be Warrior) another friend will be an Osiri Seeker/Thief, I'm considering an evil Mage/?? , (maybe a morloch). Was considering Villain, but unsure of whether it'll be lackluster in a party format.

Is it cumbersome to run a 4th party member? Is Sorcerer necessary for resists, or is seeker good enough?
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Roland
post Apr 23 2020, 03:33 AM
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I've found there are problems with a Morloch Mage. A Morloch's charisma is so low that he can't cast Soul Entrapment without charisma-boosting items. If Aelric gets drained for even a single point of charisma he can't cast SE. He also can't wear some top-level items (Lamurian Crown, Pendragon) because of his low charisma. The other problem is his low constitution. I overcame these problems because he was a legacy character running in an already mapped dungeon with access to a lot of items, including unlimited supplies of stats. About the only reason to run a Morloch is if you want to combine Warrior with Mage and/or Sorcerer. Gnomes make much better Mages. They can't be Warriors, but they can be Paladins or Villains.

The guilds in Mordor were all inherited from Avatar. The big difference between the two games is that you can't multi-class in Avatar. Therefore, the hybrid guilds served a need in Avatar, but in Mordor, which does allow multi-classing, they are less useful. However, Paladin, Villain, Seeker, and Ninja are all useful at fighting. Scavengers make lousy fighters and mediocre Thieves - the only reason to run one is to get thieving ability in a non-neutral character or to get an extra swing for an Osiri.

Sorcerers' resistance spells cost a lot less than those of other guilds. They reach minimum cost at level 91. I think it is worth taking one character to 91 in Sorc for that reason alone. But you'll probably want to keep going because they get a variety of great attack spells.

I never switch characters during combat. If I need to switch, I back out of the room first. I usually keep all characters other than the selected/lead character set to auto-fight.
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BangleTiger
post Apr 23 2020, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Apr 22 2020, 10:33 PM) *
I've found there are problems with a Morloch Mage. A Morloch's charisma is so low that he can't cast Soul Entrapment without charisma-boosting items.


I came to this realization while theorycrafting and decided on just going with Gnome. Plenty of character in this game and challenge in mapping out the whole dungeon to forgive meta choices in my first party. None of it is stale to me since I've never really played that far into the game. I have spent dozens of hours on the first few levels trying to scrap together enough resources to build a party many times in the past, so I decided to afford myself the luxury of funding in order to ID the stat tomes and potions my Giant has gathered for the purposes of starting a party. I know this may upset the purists, but after farming ~200 stat items on level 1 (and I was never into Giants), I'm quite ready to start the game in earnest. After realignment, my party has a pretty hefty debt to overcome, but they'll be able to start out with capped stats--please forgive this luxury. No other Legacy perks will be afforded to this party, so I'm counting it as half legacy/half blind playthrough, as I'll be mapping the rest of the dungeon with this group.

I'm going to make another thread to detail out their exploits.

QUOTE (Roland @ Apr 22 2020, 10:33 PM) *
I never switch characters during combat. If I need to switch, I back out of the room first. I usually keep all characters other than the selected/lead character set to auto-fight.


Interesting. Doesn't that mean the auto-fight party members might kill targets you would otherwise charm? I think the Alt+number combinations is pretty unwieldy to swap mid battle, so I'll probably use your strategy.

Thanks for all the advice and tips! I should have my party's initial stub up soon.
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Roland
post Apr 23 2020, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (BangleTiger @ Apr 23 2020, 01:33 AM) *
Interesting. Doesn't that mean the auto-fight party members might kill targets you would otherwise charm? I think the Alt+number combinations is pretty unwieldy to swap mid battle, so I'll probably use your strategy.

If the monsters are peaced, the auto-fight characters won't initiate combat. But if the monsters are hostile, the auto-fight characters might indeed kill them before you can take another action. I usually keep my Seeker/Thief/Sorcerer selected and at the front of the party, so he can usually act before other party members. But if your selected character is at the back of the party, the fight might be over before he can do anything!
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BangleTiger
post Apr 23 2020, 05:13 PM
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Ah, that makes sense. I think I had read somewhere that it's best to have the last party member (thief) selected for fast combat. These are the nuances that deserve consideration. ok.gif
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Roland
post Apr 23 2020, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (BangleTiger @ Apr 23 2020, 01:13 PM) *
Ah, that makes sense. I think I had read somewhere that it's best to have the last party member (thief) selected for fast combat. These are the nuances that deserve consideration. ok.gif

You'll want your Seeker at the front of the party so that he can use his high perception for mapping and detecting teleporters, rotators, etc. I'm pretty sure those perception functions are based on the lead character, whether he is selected or not.

I keep my Seeker/Thief/Sorcerer at the front, set to auto-defend, and the Warrior/Healer and the Paladin/Mage behind, set to auto-fight. Against a hostile encounter, if I don't do anything, the off-screen characters will do all the fighting, which does indeed speed things up. But you don't necessarily have to keep the selected character in back to use that trick.
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BangleTiger
post Apr 24 2020, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE (Roland @ Apr 23 2020, 01:33 PM) *
I keep my Seeker/Thief/Sorcerer at the front, set to auto-defend, and the Warrior/Healer and the Paladin/Mage behind, set to auto-fight. Against a hostile encounter, if I don't do anything, the off-screen characters will do all the fighting, which does indeed speed things up. But you don't necessarily have to keep the selected character in back to use that trick.



That's pretty clever! I'm finding that the thief gets a lot of extra exp from opening boxes, so this would be an easier way to manage that. So far I've just been rotating as needed.
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Roland
post Apr 24 2020, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (BangleTiger @ Apr 23 2020, 11:28 PM) *
That's pretty clever! I'm finding that the thief gets a lot of extra exp from opening boxes, so this would be an easier way to manage that. So far I've just been rotating as needed.

You might still need to rotate the characters in slots 3 and 4 forward to get them more experience. I usually keep the Paladin/Mage in the rear to protect his companions, but in that slot he tends to fall behind in experience.
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BangleTiger
post Apr 25 2020, 12:01 AM
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Yeah, I'm slowly getting accustomed to the idea that no config is permanent--just use an appropriate setup for whatever I'm trying to accomplish.

I've had little luck in tracking down certain resources. I'm trying to go in blind (without spoiling dungeon layouts, monster spawns, drop tables etc.). But I would benefit from some resources such as the spellcost calculator. I would also like to understand how spell damage is calculated as well...honestly, I'm happy to build my own tools if I can get the raw data/formulae, but I don't want to peek too much at the underlying files in case I spoil myself.

I'm also curious how pits exactly work. Sometimes a character still falls in a pit even when they have Flying. Also, any reading recommendations for how companion combat actually works? I've noticed that sometimes my party suffers from friendly fire, but I've only observed it from one party members companions to another's (when random Join monsters have clashed with my mage's charmed monsters).

I really have a thousand questions on specific mechanics, but I'll try not to ask them all at once. I'm a huge fan of studying game systems, so feel free to hit me with the details.
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Roland
post Apr 25 2020, 07:15 PM
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A lot of your questions are addressed by material on this site that is currently unavailable while Braindead tries to get everything up a running again.
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MythrilZenith
post Apr 26 2020, 02:32 AM
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Ahoy! Good to be back on the site - I had left for awhile because it was down, and because I took a break from Mordor after finishing off Asmodeus for the first time.
Glad to see my videos have inspired a few additional players to get started! Just don't blame me for any time sink you fall into sneaky.gif

Whether to party vs whether to solo in Mordor is a tough question.
Parties are a lot more survivable, can delve deeper without as much grinding, and can get away with more focused leveling in single classes, but also have a certain fragility where if one character becomes the target of everything they can die VERY quickly. They also can be tedious to gear up and manage both in town and in the dungeon, and the mid-late leveling loops can feel like they take FOREVER since you're splitting exp between several characters.
A party of 3 characters generally gives you the ability to cover most of your bases, so adding a 4th character is really just a matter of preference. If you don't mind some extra tedium, a fourth character splashing in can help relieve a lot of burden in terms of spell points used (by splitting resistances or buffs across another character) or even raw damage output.

As for solo characters, I live and die by them. I started Mordor exclusively solo-ing, and my only run to get all the way was a solo Elf. (As a note, I definitely DON'T recommend Elf as a good starting race, but it's definitely not the worst, as having the highest SP caps and not *really* having to worry about Age is nice). Solo characters are easier to manage and keep track of, but they also are a lot more fragile, require a lot higher levels to go deeper in the dungeon, and may end up having trouble soloing more difficult encounters with melee combat alone. They can utilize items to a lot better benefit than a party can, but they also have much more limited inventory space (which rarely becomes an issue until super late, tbh). The biggest point of tedium with a solo character is branching them out across multiple guilds - they will need to branch out to do all the things you want them to do, but each guild will need to be raised quite high to provide useful benefits deeper in the dungeon.

Sorry for the dump. Honestly, I feel like the first character(s) I make on a fresh install are basically cannon-fodder anyway. I don't try to force them to make it to the end, but I do gather items and just get a feel for things with them before I dedicate myself to a more specific solo or party.


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Just an average nomad trying to figure out how Mordor really works.

I've also taken the liberty of recording some videos of Mordor: Depths of Dejenol!

Classics are classic, but never mistake nostalgia for superiority. When older is better, it's because it truly is, not just because our perception of it makes it so.
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BLauritson
post Apr 26 2020, 08:35 AM
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Welcome back MythrilZenith smile.gif


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BangleTiger
post Apr 27 2020, 05:16 AM
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Yes, welcome back and thanks for the notes (and the inspiration to actually return to this gem)! I'm chronicling my party's adventures in another thread in a sort of hybrid style--sharing tales of their exploits with some creative writing thrown in for fun with the characters. Mostly it's just for fun content to share with some friends (each of whom rolled one of the party members---with some guidance from me to help it stay balanced/easy enough for me to consistently progress with minimal legacy resources on a mostly blind run). But if people like it, I'll keep sharing here on the forums.

I'm sure at some point down the road I'll make a legacy solo character. I'll try to make it memorable.
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BLauritson
post Apr 27 2020, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (BangleTiger @ Apr 27 2020, 06:16 AM) *
Mostly it's just for fun content to share with some friends (each of whom rolled one of the party members---with some guidance from me to help it stay balanced/easy enough for me to consistently progress with minimal legacy resources on a mostly blind run). But if people like it, I'll keep sharing here on the forums.

You've certainly got my vote ok.gif


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